Last names in Middle-earth - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Nazgûl-king · 12-09-2009, 03:08 PM

Well, I have not been here for a while, anyway... I find it interesting that with all the characters in Middle-earth we have so few last names. All of the hobbits seem to have last names, but it seems we are given vary few last names of peoples from other races. Why do you guys think Tolkien did this?

Legate of Amon Lanc · 12-09-2009, 03:15 PM

An interesting question, a linguist like Tolkien probably had his own reasoning behind who and why used or did not use last names in Middle-Earth, though I can as well imagine the initial idea being just "what sounded good".

Many people had second names, but only in the sense in which the original surnames for example in many European cultural spaces came to be - just an earned "nickname", like for example Felagund. But still these were individual and never were inherited down in the family - that seemed to occur in all nations only among the Hobbits.

Perhaps some HoME loremasters could say more (I am sure there's been a particular essay about Elves, though I don't think they had last names, even though they could have several names).

Thinlómien · 12-09-2009, 04:41 PM

Don't forget Breelander humans, they had last names too. (And when I'm personally meddling with M-E in my RPGs, I made Haradians have last names too, just for interest...

)

I would like to point out, however, that (if I'm correct) last names as we know them is a fairly recent thing in the western world. Nobility had their family names (but there's in M-E the house of this and that to represent the same thing) but normal people, especially peasants, had no last names. If they needed more names than their own, they could use their father's name (like we could say for example Frodo son of Drogo) or their place of origin (Frodo from Hobbiton) or nicknames like Legate mentioned above.

Ibrîniðilpathânezel · 12-09-2009, 05:04 PM

We do know from the HoME books that Aragorn used the surname "Arathornsson" in a letter he sent to Sam (if I'm recalling correctly) during his reign. Given that and the fact that in the LotR, he called himself "Aragorn, son of Arathorn," I would suspect that what surnames existed among the Dunedain and possibly the Rohirrim followed that general pattern. Tolkien may have said more about it in his letters, but no specific mention comes to mind at the moment. I shall have to look. (After supper. The tummy is growling....)

Thinlómien · 12-09-2009, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

We do know from the HoME books that Aragorn used the surname "Arathornsson" in a letter he sent to Sam (if I'm recalling correctly) during his reign. Given that and the fact that in the LotR, he called himself "Aragorn, son of Arathorn," I would suspect that what surnames existed among the Dunedain and possibly the Rohirrim followed that general pattern. Tolkien may have said more about it in his letters, but no specific mention comes to mind at the moment. I shall have to look. (After supper. The tummy is growling....)

What about Fréalaf Hildeson, Helm Hammerhand's nephew who became the king after him?

Alfirin · 12-09-2009, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

If they needed more names than their own, they could use their father's name (like we could say for example Frodo son of Drogo) or their place of origin (Frodo from Hobbiton) or nicknames like Legate mentioned above.

Don't forget profession, in a lot of the parts of the world at one time, you surname was the sort of work you did. Think about how many common anglo-saxon surnames are professions, Thatcher, Smith, Weaver, Carter, Carpenter, Hunter etc.

I would also like to point out that in our own world historically, there were a lot of cultures where you weren't allowed to have a surname if you were a commoner, that was a privledge reserved for those of noble blood. It underescored the fact that they were important and you weren't. for example if I recall The first non-noble class person in Japan to get a surname didn't do so until the late 1870's, and THAT was a special reward bestowed by the emperor (for suving lost at sea for a record breaking time, as I recall)

Galin · 12-09-2009, 08:44 PM

Interesting line from Aragorn...

'But Strider shall be the name of my house, if that be ever established. In the high tongue it will not sound so ill, and Telcontar I will be and all the heirs of my body.'

Morthoron · 12-09-2009, 09:07 PM

Among Elves and Dwarves last names are honorific titles, like Thorin Oakenshield or Finrod Felagund, and are not passed down generationally like among the anachronistic Hobbits and Bree men.

12-09-2009, 03:08 PM	#1
Nazgûl-king Wight Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 104	Last names in Middle-earth Well, I have not been here for a while, anyway... I find it interesting that with all the characters in Middle-earth we have so few last names. All of the hobbits seem to have last names, but it seems we are given vary few last names of peoples from other races. Why do you guys think Tolkien did this?

12-09-2009, 03:15 PM	#2
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	An interesting question, a linguist like Tolkien probably had his own reasoning behind who and why used or did not use last names in Middle-Earth, though I can as well imagine the initial idea being just "what sounded good". Many people had second names, but only in the sense in which the original surnames for example in many European cultural spaces came to be - just an earned "nickname", like for example Felagund. But still these were individual and never were inherited down in the family - that seemed to occur in all nations only among the Hobbits. Perhaps some HoME loremasters could say more (I am sure there's been a particular essay about Elves, though I don't think they had last names, even though they could have several names). __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

12-09-2009, 04:41 PM	#3
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,093	Don't forget Breelander humans, they had last names too. (And when I'm personally meddling with M-E in my RPGs, I made Haradians have last names too, just for interest... ) I would like to point out, however, that (if I'm correct) last names as we know them is a fairly recent thing in the western world. Nobility had their family names (but there's in M-E the house of this and that to represent the same thing) but normal people, especially peasants, had no last names. If they needed more names than their own, they could use their father's name (like we could say for example Frodo son of Drogo) or their place of origin (Frodo from Hobbiton) or nicknames like Legate mentioned above. __________________ Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris

12-09-2009, 05:04 PM	#4
Ibrîniðilpathânezel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Back on the Helcaraxe Posts: 733	We do know from the HoME books that Aragorn used the surname "Arathornsson" in a letter he sent to Sam (if I'm recalling correctly) during his reign. Given that and the fact that in the LotR, he called himself "Aragorn, son of Arathorn," I would suspect that what surnames existed among the Dunedain and possibly the Rohirrim followed that general pattern. Tolkien may have said more about it in his letters, but no specific mention comes to mind at the moment. I shall have to look. (After supper. The tummy is growling....) __________________ Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. — John Stewart Mill

12-09-2009, 09:07 PM	#8
Morthoron Curmudgeonly Wordwraith Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits Posts: 2,509	Among Elves and Dwarves last names are honorific titles, like Thorin Oakenshield or Finrod Felagund, and are not passed down generationally like among the anachronistic Hobbits and Bree men. __________________ And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision.

12-09-2009, 08:44 PM	#7
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,034	Interesting line from Aragorn... 'But Strider shall be the name of my house, if that be ever established. In the high tongue it will not sound so ill, and Telcontar I will be and all the heirs of my body.'