Elven Rings in the 1st Age

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

If the the Three were made (just imagine without Sauron hijacking them or him making the One) during the 1st Age, the Elvish Kingdoms would have survived, or had a better chance of surviving, right? Though the world wasn't so weary or decayed then, the Three would've been a great help in resisting Morgoth's influence in Beleriand.

In terms of enhancing the natural powers of of its bearers, could we attribute Vilya for Elrond's commandment of the flood? And can we say the same of Nenya for Galadriel's shrouding of Eorl? Or were these ring-enhanced, pre-existing abilities of both bearers? For I've never seen such powers (high magic) from both during the 2nd Age or the 1st. 1st Age Elves (Sindar or Calaquendi) do not even have this kind of power (except for Luthien and maybe that Elf who lives in Nan Elmoth). The elves of Tol Sirion, for example, relied on Ulmo's power to defend them, yet if Elrond or some other high elf lord were there weilding Vilya, they could've been better protected without Ulmo's intervention.

I could see Morgoth having a very hard time capturing Gondoling with Turgon weilding Vilya and placing it under his protection, in addition to having powerful elf-lords at his disposal (Glorfindel and Ecthelion) and vigilance of the eagles. If Elrond (granted he is a decendant of Luthien) could summon a flood to defend Rivendell, how much more for a Calaquendi like Turgon? Maybe Turgon and Elrond are even since Elrond was never nurtured amidst the light of the Two Trees (but Turgon was), yet Elrond had a strain of Melian's powers (?). A fair trade-off for a Moriquendi right?

I could also see Finrod withstanding against Sauron in their duel if he had worn Narya, enhancing his still fresh-off-the-boat, two-tree-lit-aman-bred spiritual stature/power. Or if it hasn't come to that, I could see Nargothrond not falling against Glaurung if protected by Narya.

I don't see Nenya on anyone but Galadriel. Perhaps if she built her own kingdom at Tasarinan or Ossiriand, or if she took over a ruined Menegroth... with Nenya at work, it would've been restored, maintained, and defended.

Take these suppositions with all the seven sons of Feanor dead, of course, so as to rest the curse of Mandos, then I see the Elf kingdoms lasting or at least keeping the forces of Morgoth at bay (and the dominion of men postponed). Considering Morgoth had Balrogs and orcs and dragons... the heavy losses suffered the elves could have been assuaged had the Three been at work at the time. On second thought, I don't think they'd suffer "heavy" losses if the Three had been. What do y'all think?

[Mnemosyne]

Eep.

Sorry, but I can't see such a situation in a positive light when you look at which elves were in Beleriand in the First Age.

Even in the Third Age Elrond to an extent and Galadriel especially are seen as embalmers, keeping their own little pockets of unchangingness. They manage to still be good characters only because they are willing to risk that loss in order to defeat Sauron.

But let's look at the First Age in contrast. About the only elf who would both have sufficient stature to justify getting one of the Three at all (assuming that they weren't made by Feanor, who would in that case have kept it within the family) and sufficient wisdom not to screw up having that kind of power was Finrod. Maybe (maybe maybe maybe) Union-era Maedhros.

By contrast, almost all the other Elves had major issues, whether with the Oath or pride or racism. And then there's the fact that there are so many of them and they're all so powerful... More powerful might not only increase negative, embalming-type traits, but also might end up destroying the very land they were trying to save (as the Valar did during the War of Wrath).

So, yeah, sure the Elves would have held out longer, but during that amount of time those Elves who didn't have Rings--and the Men under their protection--would assuredly have been wiped out.

And if the Elves did manage to beat Morgoth on their own... think of how much that would have changed everything else.

[Inziladun]

As a hypothetical scenario it's an interesting exercise, but I very much doubt the Elves would have been successful against Morgoth, even aided by the Three.
First off, it took Sauron's knowledge and assistance to enable the Three to be made. That aside, it is made clear in LOTR that the Keepers of the Three could not resist even a Ringless Sauron indefinitely.
That being the case, it is that much less likely they could have done much with the Three to defend themselves against Sauron's mentor and one-time master.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

As a hypothetical scenario it's an interesting exercise, but I very much doubt the Elves would have been successful against Morgoth, even aided by the Three.
First off, it took Sauron's knowledge and assistance to enable the Three to be made. That aside, it is made clear in LOTR that the Keepers of the Three could not resist even a Ringless Sauron indefinitely.
That being the case, it is that much less likely they could have done much with the Three to defend themselves against Sauron's mentor and one-time master.

But let's just suppose Celebrimbor figured out how to create the Three without Sauron's help. Let's just pretend hypothetically that the Three were free from any of Sauron's influence.

In LOTR, the elves were dwindling in number, that is probably why even Galadriel or Elrond could not resist Sauron because both kingdoms could not amass an army comparable to the 1st and 2nd age. Remember Sauron feared the Numenoreans, mortal men. But if on a one-on-one scale, Sauron (ringless) against Galadriel (w/ Nenya) or Elrond (w/ Vilya), I think they could maim him enough to remove him from the physical plane. Not to mention Elrond is a descendant of Melian and Galadriel a Calaquendi comparable to Feanor and a pupil of Melian, I can see them dying (sans Nenya or Vilya) but also killing Sauron's incarnation, ending in a stalemate. Also remember that it only took Gil-Galad and Elendiand Isildurl to beat Sauron WITH the Ring, so how much more for a ringless Sauron against Galadriel with Nenya or Elrond with Vilya? I'd say Elrond or Galadriel would have fared better (even more if they fought him together). It's just that if you calculate the risk, it would not be so wise to send Elrond or Galadriel to face Sauron in the waning 3rd age. But I think either one of them can destroy his incarnate form.

I mean look at the contest between Finrod and Sauron. Though Finrod was beaten eventually, his skill in magic was pretty high enough to support him against Sauron. Finrod at this time was on a long travel from Nargothrond, so he wasn't exactly super fresh. Then you have Fingolfin against Morgoth. Sure he died but he was able to wound Morgoth. Finrod and Fingolfin were ringless, so how much more if these elf-lords were weilding the Three? Let's not forget Ecthelion and Glorfindel who went toe-to-toe with Balrogs. Sure they also died, but if they wore rings of power, or their dwellings were protected by the elven rings, the weariness and all the negativity Melkor purged in Beleriand (and in Arda) would be warded off from them.

Therefore, if the Eldar and their great numbers were fresh-off-the-boat from Valinor, and their leaders had the Three (and they were in league with Melian and Thingol), they would have flourished in much safer havens, and the doom of Mandos (weariness) kept at bay. Thus, better chance of surviving Morgoth and his minions.

Sorry, but I can't see such a situation in a positive light when you look at which elves were in Beleriand in the First Age.

Even in the Third Age Elrond to an extent and Galadriel especially are seen as embalmers, keeping their own little pockets of unchangingness. They manage to still be good characters only because they are willing to risk that loss in order to defeat Sauron.

Embalmers to who/whom? The Valar's perspective? Sure. But I don't see anything wrong with this. The elves were born in Middle-earth. They should be able to stay there as they please. I don't see anything wrong with preserving the fair things they loved or healing the hurts of Arda.

But let's look at the First Age in contrast. About the only elf who would both have sufficient stature to justify getting one of the Three at all (assuming that they weren't made by Feanor, who would in that case have kept it within the family) and sufficient wisdom not to screw up having that kind of power was Finrod. Maybe (maybe maybe maybe) Union-era Maedhros.

Agreed, though I think his sister Galadriel would be a wise candidate as well. I don't think Turgon Finrod or Galadriel had issues, though. So I nominate them to weild the Three.

Side thought: If the Seven and the Nine (which were lesser in power than the Three) were also made free of taint from Sauron and distributed to the Elven generals/captains (Glorfindel, Ecthelion, Orodreth, Cirdan, Denethor, Mablung) of the Elven-kings (Fingolfin, Finrod, Galadriel), as well as given to the Dwarves of Belegost, I believe Morgoth would eventually fall. It'd be a long time but if there are that much rings of power weilded by his enemies, he'd exhaust his Valarian strength.

[Pitchwife]

I don't think this scenario works (or not like you present it, anyway), for a number of reasons.

Originally Posted by Gorthaur

For I've never seen such powers (high magic) from both during the 2nd Age or the 1st.

This may, in part at least, be explicable by the facts that the Silmarillion, not to mention the sparse records of the 2nd Age that we have, is told in a much more remote perspective than LotR. If Tolkien had ever fleshed out the legends of the Elder Days in the same detail as LotR, who knows what we'd have seen?

Originally Posted by Gorthaur

The elves of Tol Sirion, for example, relied on Ulmo's power to defend them, yet if Elrond or some other high elf lord were there weilding Vilya, they could've been better protected without Ulmo's intervention.

1) We don't actually know that Elrond used Vilya to cause the flood at the Ford of Bruinen (for reasons why I don't think Vilya was involved there, see below*). The Nazgûl's general fear of flowing water (also testified by their reluctance to cross the Brandywine) suggests that Ulmo's power was still present in the streams in the 3rd Age, all Elrond had to do was to invoke it. If you wonder why it apparently was unusually easy for him to do this, consider he was the son of Eärendil and grandson of Tuor, to whom the Lord of the Waters had shown exceptional favour. No need for a Ring to explain this.
2) It's one thing to drown nine Nazgûl (not yet revealed at the height of their power), another to fend off an attack by a whole army of orcs led by your abominable namesake in person. At the Council, Elrond himself admitted that he had not the strength to withstand Sauron in a direct confrontation.

Originally Posted by Gorthaur

I could see Morgoth having a very hard time capturing Gondoling with Turgon weilding Vilya

He had a very hard time conquering it without that, and the odds are he would have succeeded, if at all, much later and at much greater cost without the treason of Maeglin. But what if there had been a traitor at Rivendell?

Originally Posted by Gorthaur

I could also see Finrod withstanding against Sauron in their duel if he had worn Narya, enhancing his still fresh-off-the-boat, two-tree-lit-aman-bred spiritual stature/power. Or if it hasn't come to that, I could see Nargothrond not falling against Glaurung if protected by Narya.

Considering that Narya's chief virtue seems to have been in enhancing willpower, I agree it might have aided Finrod in his confrontation with Sauron. But Nargothrond fell because Túrin, in his hybris or ofermod, refused to listen to Ulmo's counsel. Don't see how Narya could have changed that.

Originally Posted by Gorthaur

Take these suppositions with all the seven sons of Feanor dead, of course, so as to rest the curse of Mandos

This is a minor issue and unrelated to the question of the Rings, but as I understand it, it wasn't Feanor and his sons only who were under the curse, but all the Noldor who had rebelled against the Valar and taken part in the first Kinslaying.

*Vilya was the Ring of Air, Nenya the Ring of Water. If any of the Three gave its wielder special power over water, it would have been Nenya, not Vilya.
But this leads me to another question. This thread, and the one about Nenya and the Elessar, have made me think a bit about the specific virtues of the Three, in other words the nature of the power each of them conferred on its wielder.
Each of the three is named after one of three elements - Air, Water, and Fire; at first glance, this looks like they gave their wielders power over the respective elements. Now Gandalf, who had Narya, certainly showed exceptional skill in the handling of fire (fireworks, naur an edraith ammen, wielder of the Flame of Anor etc.), but being an incarnate Maiar, he certainly didn't depend on a Ring for this; as for Elrond and Galadriel, I don't see them controlling Air and Water in any obvious way. So what does it mean?
In esoteric thought, the four elements are associated with different faculties of the human mind/soul. Applying these associations to the Three Rings, we get:
Vilya - Air - reason. The chief role of Elrond in LotR and The Hobbit (apart from his being a great healer) is offering counsel, giving advice to others based on his wisdom and knowledge.
Narya - Fire - will and passion. This is the most obvious correspondance: Círdan gave Narya to Gandalf 'for the kindling of all hearts with courage', to strengthen their hope and determination to oppose Sauron.
Nenya - Water - emotion, intuition, the subconscious. This is the least obvious, but (to me at least) it somehow resonates with Galadriel's love and yearning for timeless beauty, as well as the scrying power of her mirror.
I'm not saying any of this was on Tolkien's conscious mind, but it seems to fit, and it may be worth considering if we speculate what use 1st age elves might have made of the Three.

(x-ed with Gorthaur's last, which I don't consider here, or I'd never get this posted)

[Formendacil]

It's an interesting mental experiment, this, but it seems to me that the Elven Rings would have been of very little use in the First Age. It seems to me that the chief usage of all the Rings is related to the preservation of things--even Gandalf's use of the Narya to strengthen hearts could be seen as a action of preservation directly specifically at someone's will. Assuming this interpretation, the whole point of the Three Rings, from the perspective of the Elves, is to preserve.

What, then, were they preserving? To me, it seems clear they were preserving Valinor. Each of their kingdoms in exile, and especially the descriptions of the Eldar realms under the Rings in Imladris and Lothlórien seem to me very much to be attempts to recapture Valinor in its fullness--but the Eldar themselves were very much at the height of their Valinorean-enhanced powers during the First Age, and the impression I get is that this had not waned substantially in the five-six hundred years spanned before the War of Wrath.

Indeed, it seems to me that the power of the Rings might well have inhibited the work of the Eldar, because it preserves things by arresting them in their current state--and despite war, the First Age was still a time of doing and making among the Elves. To postulate a Finrod and a Turgon with Vilya and Nenya seems to postulate, to me, a Finrod who stayed in Minas Tirith and never build Nargothrond, and a Turgon who stayed in Vinyamar and never build Gondolin.

Next, it seems worthy of mention that such protection as the Rings afforded the Elves, it was still unequal to the Girdle of Melian--the orks marched right through Nimrodel in The Lord of the Rings. The Rings do not strike me, therefore, as a practical protection, but rather as a preservation of those things which the Elves wanted to protect.

Finally, this all seems to reckon without due consideration for the Doom of the Noldor. The Three were made, in actual fact, separate from any participation by Sauron, yet they were enmeshed completely in the fate of the One. Is it at all likely, then, that had the Three been made in the First Age that it would have escaped the fate of its makers (unless you assume the Sindar forged them in Doriath...)? To me it seems highly unlikely--if the One Ring had the character of its maker, then I think one can assume this was true of the Three--in their case, Celebrimbor. If this were so of First Age Rings, then the character of its Nolder forger(s) would the character of the Doom.

Not a good thing--it might have hastened things ere Eärendil was born or the Valar be moved to intervene!

Fascinating topic, though, I must say!