This is the end, beautiful friends... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Greyhame · 01-20-2003, 06:05 PM

Since my reading in Tolkien is still limited to the Holy Trinity (Hobbit, LOTR, Sil), I would request that the more erudite amongst us kindly elucidate the following topic for me...

Could someone please explain Arda's parousia, or end times, to me? I'm thinking mainly of Morgoth's release, any final battles, and of course, the Second Music of the Ainur. How does all of this go down? What prophecies (if any) did the good Professor record and/or explain?

Any help in this area is greatly appreciated. If another thread has adequately covered this, simply point the way (with a link, please).

[ January 20, 2003: Message edited by: Greyhame ]

Legolas · 01-20-2003, 07:40 PM

Unfinished Tales:

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Manwë will not descend from the Mountain until Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns.

Morgoth's Ring

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Even to the final war against Morgoth it is Fionwë son of Manwë who leads out the power of the Valar. When we move out Manwë it will be the last battle, and the end of the World (or of 'Arda Marred') as the Eldar would say.

The Silmarillion

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Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Ilúvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased.

The world will be remade by Aule and the dwarves:

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...then their part shall be to serve Aule and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle.

The Lost Road

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Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the Sun and Moon. But Earendel shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwe, and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Turin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.
Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Earendel shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Feanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Palurien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the Light shall go out over all the world. In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Iluvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Turin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.

(Door of Night = Ando Lomen, the gate in Valinor that opened up the Timeless Void)

The Peoples of Middle-Earth

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...unless the prophecy of Andreth the Wise-woman should prove true, that Turin in the Last Battle should return from the Dead, and before he left the Circles of the World for ever should challenge the Great Dragon ofMorgoth, Ancalagon the Black, and deal him the death-stroke.

(Fionwë, son of Manwë was later changed to Eönwë, the herald of Manwë)

There are various other versions and comments on the Dagor Dagorath (the prophesied Last Battle), but the account from The Lost Road is the most complete written conception of that battle.

Tolkien was never completely sure of this end. Especially after he decided that Arda eventually became the earth we live on, it was unclear whether or not this last battle would take place...undecided on whether the earth ends peacefully or that this battle will still take place at the end of our time.

[ January 20, 2003: Message edited by: Legalos ]

***Mithadan*** · 01-21-2003, 08:36 AM

Legalos does a fine job of addressing the source materials of this legend. As he comments, the concept of Dagor Dagorath is very unsettled. Some argue that Tolkien rejected the idea ultimately due to his linking of his mythos to the real world.

Others suggest that he modified it and intended the version quoted from Peoples of Middle Earth to be an amendment of the battle at the end of the first age in which Morgoth was overthrown. Advocates of this position suggest that the reference to the great dragon means Ancalagon the Black. Some also point out that the latest conceptions of the Battle of Wrath suggest that Morgoth was not exiled to the void but was instead executed so that there could be no final battle.

The reappearence of Turin goes back to earlier conceptions of the final battle and is not consonant with other parts of the legendarium which provide that Men depart from the world after they die. The concept of Morgoth being slain can also be cast in doubt as the killing of an Ainu would likely fall afoul of Eru's "rules" discussed in Osanwe Kenta.

01-20-2003, 06:05 PM	#1
Greyhame Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: illinois Posts: 42	This is the end, beautiful friends... Since my reading in Tolkien is still limited to the Holy Trinity (Hobbit, LOTR, Sil), I would request that the more erudite amongst us kindly elucidate the following topic for me... Could someone please explain Arda's parousia, or end times, to me? I'm thinking mainly of Morgoth's release, any final battles, and of course, the Second Music of the Ainur. How does all of this go down? What prophecies (if any) did the good Professor record and/or explain? Any help in this area is greatly appreciated. If another thread has adequately covered this, simply point the way (with a link, please). [ January 20, 2003: Message edited by: Greyhame ] __________________ Poo-tee-weet?

01-21-2003, 08:36 AM	#3
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,383	Legalos does a fine job of addressing the source materials of this legend. As he comments, the concept of Dagor Dagorath is very unsettled. Some argue that Tolkien rejected the idea ultimately due to his linking of his mythos to the real world. Others suggest that he modified it and intended the version quoted from Peoples of Middle Earth to be an amendment of the battle at the end of the first age in which Morgoth was overthrown. Advocates of this position suggest that the reference to the great dragon means Ancalagon the Black. Some also point out that the latest conceptions of the Battle of Wrath suggest that Morgoth was not exiled to the void but was instead executed so that there could be no final battle. The reappearence of Turin goes back to earlier conceptions of the final battle and is not consonant with other parts of the legendarium which provide that Men depart from the world after they die. The concept of Morgoth being slain can also be cast in doubt as the killing of an Ainu would likely fall afoul of Eru's "rules" discussed in Osanwe Kenta. __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.