Gothmog and the Mouth - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Morsul the Dark · 10-10-2009, 10:08 PM

I'm sure this theory has been said before I however couldn't find it. Is there any evidence to be found that Gothmog And Or the Mouth of Sauron are the Blue wizards?

Inziladun · 10-10-2009, 10:22 PM

I don't think I've heard that idea before. I'd think the answer would be 'no' on both counts.

The Mouth is clearly said to be a Man, of Númenórean descent.
The identity of Gothmog isn't as obvious. I suppose my main argument againt him being one of the Blues is this: if Sauron had a servant (or two) of such high spritual stature and power, I would think they would have had greater status and responsibilities under him than being mere field commanders. After all, being angelic Maiar, they would have been peers of Sauron.
Too, if Gothmog had been one of the Istari, I don't think the Witch-king would have to have been the one to use 'sorcery' to break the gate of Minas Tirith.

Ghazi · 10-15-2009, 11:50 AM

There's no evidence to suggest this but I wonder if Gothmog was the last king of Gondor, Eärnur. He foolishly rode to Minas Morgul and was never seen again by the good guys. I wonder if he was whisked off to the Houses of Lamentation that were mentioned by the Lord of the Nazgul, or used in some other way.

Inziladun · 10-15-2009, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghazi

There's no evidence to suggest this but I wonder if Gothmog was the last king of Gondor, Eärnur. He foolishly rode to Minas Morgul and was never seen again by the good guys. I wonder if he was whisked off to the Houses of Lamentation that were mentioned by the Lord of the Nazgul, or used in some other way.

Granted, Eärnur's ultimate end was unknown, since there were no witnesses to his death, but I don't see what mechanism Sauron would have (other than the Nine) of prolonging his life for so long.
And how would he have 'turned' someone like Eärnur to his service, again without making him a wraith through use of the Nine?

Ghazi · 10-15-2009, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Granted, Eärnur's ultimate end was unknown, since there were no witnesses to his death, but I don't see what mechanism Sauron would have (other than the Nine) of prolonging his life for so long.
And how would he have 'turned' someone like Eärnur to his service, again without making him a wraith through use of the Nine?

Sauron was a necromancer and it is clear that the Lord of the Nazgul had some ability to extend the lives of the Barrow Wights, which I assume are the disembodied spirits of the Children of Iluvatar.

Boromir88 · 10-15-2009, 03:03 PM

It's not clear that The Mouth was a Black Numenorean, that is only what was said about him, but he was clearly high up in Sauron's hierarchy, and had forgotten his true name (just as the Nazgul remain nameless).

Although I don't think he was one of the blue wizards (as interesting of a question as it is that got me thinking what if?), because in the very late writings Tolkien told a bit more about the Blue Wizards. After Saruman had went East with them and returned alone CT mentions that the two blue wizards were Maia of Orome and can be assumed their mission was to travel (and stay) to the unknown lands of Middle-earth (reasons for why they stayed in the East). There they played a significant role in resisting Sauron and limitting the numbers who joined his armies. However, I think this essay on the Ithryn Luin was very late (I want to say 1970 or '71?) and not sure if it can be considered canon. I'll see if I can dig it up.

10-10-2009, 10:08 PM	#1
Morsul the Dark Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 3,448	Gothmog and the Mouth I'm sure this theory has been said before I however couldn't find it. Is there any evidence to be found that Gothmog And Or the Mouth of Sauron are the Blue wizards? __________________ Morsul the Resurrected

10-10-2009, 10:22 PM	#2
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,037	I don't think I've heard that idea before. I'd think the answer would be 'no' on both counts. The Mouth is clearly said to be a Man, of Númenórean descent. The identity of Gothmog isn't as obvious. I suppose my main argument againt him being one of the Blues is this: if Sauron had a servant (or two) of such high spritual stature and power, I would think they would have had greater status and responsibilities under him than being mere field commanders. After all, being angelic Maiar, they would have been peers of Sauron. Too, if Gothmog had been one of the Istari, I don't think the Witch-king would have to have been the one to use 'sorcery' to break the gate of Minas Tirith. __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

10-15-2009, 03:03 PM	#6
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,519	It's not clear that The Mouth was a Black Numenorean, that is only what was said about him, but he was clearly high up in Sauron's hierarchy, and had forgotten his true name (just as the Nazgul remain nameless). Although I don't think he was one of the blue wizards (as interesting of a question as it is that got me thinking what if?), because in the very late writings Tolkien told a bit more about the Blue Wizards. After Saruman had went East with them and returned alone CT mentions that the two blue wizards were Maia of Orome and can be assumed their mission was to travel (and stay) to the unknown lands of Middle-earth (reasons for why they stayed in the East). There they played a significant role in resisting Sauron and limitting the numbers who joined his armies. However, I think this essay on the Ithryn Luin was very late (I want to say 1970 or '71?) and not sure if it can be considered canon. I'll see if I can dig it up. __________________ Fenris Penguin

10-15-2009, 11:50 AM	#3
Ghazi Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 57	There's no evidence to suggest this but I wonder if Gothmog was the last king of Gondor, Eärnur. He foolishly rode to Minas Morgul and was never seen again by the good guys. I wonder if he was whisked off to the Houses of Lamentation that were mentioned by the Lord of the Nazgul, or used in some other way.