Elves - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lyra Greenleaf · 01-19-2003, 11:33 AM

Can anybody tell me- do elves 'grow up' slower than mortals? how long does it take for an elf to become mature?

also, do all the elves of Mirkwood go to Valinor the wars of the ring, does thranduil?

Elven-Maiden · 01-19-2003, 12:09 PM

Yes, they do age slower. I believe I read somewhere that it takes 50 years for an elf to mature. But I could be wrong- it could take longer.

Eldar14 · 01-19-2003, 01:53 PM

Yes, they do take longer to age, but if I remember correctly, it takes longer than fifty years. And for them to look old, it takes ages upon ages. And isn't the the rate of their growing old in part tied to them growing weary.

Falagar · 01-19-2003, 02:42 PM

according to Morgoth's Ring the Elves became mature at the age of 51 [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

InklingElf · 01-19-2003, 02:44 PM

...And in addition to that, they become even more beautiful and wiser [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

**The Saucepan Man** · 01-19-2003, 05:43 PM

It makes sense that a race that is immortal will take a darn sight longer than most to reach maturity.

But one thing that has always puzzled me is why don't they have more children. From the family trees that I have seen, they seem to have about the same size families on average as we do. But, given the time they were around, you would expect them to have considerably more (with the inevitable population explosion). Is this explained anywhere, or is it something that we just assume as Elven nature?

Eldar14 · 01-19-2003, 09:28 PM

Wasn't their some thing about how the elves don't increase in number, but that all of their children are the dead elves coming back? Not sure though.

Raefindel · 01-20-2003, 02:03 PM

Elves had only a few children because they must give up a piece of their Fea (spirit) for the creation of the child.

There are several previous discussions about this subject that mayhelp answer your questions.

the science of middle Earth

Did Gil-Galad Have children

Elven reproduction

[ January 20, 2003: Message edited by: Raefindel ]

**The Saucepan Man** · 01-21-2003, 01:21 PM

Thanks for the links Raefindel. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

InklingElf · 01-23-2003, 02:56 PM

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Thanks Raifindel! The links were helpful [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Ultimatejoe · 01-23-2003, 04:47 PM

The conception that all elves are reembodied in children was abandoned by Tolkien.

Eru · 01-23-2003, 05:00 PM

then why do many elves who are dying state that it will be long ere they are released from Mandos?

[ January 23, 2003: Message edited by: Eru ]

Ultimatejoe · 01-24-2003, 03:13 AM

Because in his later conception Tolkien had the elves being re-embodied in new bodies like their own, instead of being born into children.

Orald · 01-24-2003, 08:05 AM

i.e. Glorfindel

Lyra Greenleaf · 01-25-2003, 08:27 AM

Please, does ANYONE know if all the elves went to Valinor, did Thranduil?

Inderjit Sanghera · 01-27-2003, 11:14 AM

I think the main consensus is htat most of the Silvan Elves and all the Avari remained in M-E and faided whilst the Sindar and Noldor for the most part would've passed west. Thranduil may have followed his son into the west. He also would've found his dad there, if he was re-incarnated.

Jurion · 01-27-2003, 11:50 AM

Thranduil could have travelled to Aman, he is still an elf and the Summons of the Valar called for all of the elves to come to the west. Even the Avari could have gone later, though I think they still didn't go because they were reluctant to go at first.

[ January 27, 2003: Message edited by: Jurion ]

Lyra Greenleaf · 01-27-2003, 12:57 PM

oh, another question I have is: was it possible for elves to go from Valinor to ME after the Noldor left? cos if Glorfindel was reincarnated in Mandos, how did he get back to Rivendell?

Inderjit Sanghera · 01-28-2003, 04:04 AM

I think it was possible in the second age,since valinor hadn't yet been taken off the face of the earth,and it is probable that Glorfindel came in the S.A. Some even say the Gildor Inglorion was from Valinor, because of his name INGLORION , scion of Inglor,a early name for Finrod,and since Finrod had no sons, (apart from Gil-Galad, for a brief time,but he seems to be everyones son) in M-E,we can assuemhe is a grandson or son of Finrod and his 'lover'in Valinor who was named, I think Amarie. In the Third Age the Istari were sent, though that was problably because they were sent by the Valar.

[ January 28, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ]

[ January 28, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ]

01-19-2003, 11:33 AM	#1
Lyra Greenleaf The Diaphanous Dryad Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: R toL: 531, past the wild path Posts: 1,152	Elves Can anybody tell me- do elves 'grow up' slower than mortals? how long does it take for an elf to become mature? also, do all the elves of Mirkwood go to Valinor the wars of the ring, does thranduil? __________________ “Sylphs of the forest,” I whispered. “Spirits of oak, beech and ash. Dryads of Rowan and hazel, hear us. You who have guided and guarded our every footstep, you who have sheltered our growth, we honour you." the Forbidden Link

01-19-2003, 12:09 PM	#2
Elven-Maiden Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 297	Yes, they do age slower. I believe I read somewhere that it takes 50 years for an elf to mature. But I could be wrong- it could take longer. __________________ Tout ce qui est or ne brille pas, Tous ceux qui errent ne sont pas perdus. Mobilis in Mobile

01-19-2003, 01:53 PM	#3
Eldar14 Wight Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: the Cottage of Lost Play Posts: 182	Yes, they do take longer to age, but if I remember correctly, it takes longer than fifty years. And for them to look old, it takes ages upon ages. And isn't the the rate of their growing old in part tied to them growing weary. __________________ "Come away! Let the cowards keep this city!" -- Fëanor to the Noldor

01-19-2003, 02:42 PM	#4
Falagar Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Norway Posts: 69	according to Morgoth's Ring the Elves became mature at the age of 51 [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Auta i lomë! Aurë entuluva! "Take no heed! We speak as is right, and as King Finwë himself did before he was led astray. We are his heirs by right and the elder house. Let them sá-sí, if they can speak no better." -Son of the Therindë

01-19-2003, 05:43 PM	#6
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	It makes sense that a race that is immortal will take a darn sight longer than most to reach maturity. But one thing that has always puzzled me is why don't they have more children. From the family trees that I have seen, they seem to have about the same size families on average as we do. But, given the time they were around, you would expect them to have considerably more (with the inevitable population explosion). Is this explained anywhere, or is it something that we just assume as Elven nature? __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

01-19-2003, 02:44 PM	#5
InklingElf Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 402	...And in addition to that, they become even more beautiful and wiser [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

01-19-2003, 09:28 PM	#7
Eldar14 Wight Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: the Cottage of Lost Play Posts: 182	Wasn't their some thing about how the elves don't increase in number, but that all of their children are the dead elves coming back? Not sure though. __________________ "Come away! Let the cowards keep this city!" -- Fëanor to the Noldor

01-20-2003, 02:03 PM	#8
Raefindel Sword of the Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,313	Elves had only a few children because they must give up a piece of their Fea (spirit) for the creation of the child. There are several previous discussions about this subject that mayhelp answer your questions. the science of middle Earth Did Gil-Galad Have children Elven reproduction [ January 20, 2003: Message edited by: Raefindel ] __________________ Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1

01-21-2003, 01:21 PM	#9
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	Thanks for the links Raefindel. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

01-23-2003, 02:56 PM	#10
InklingElf Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 402	[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Thanks Raifindel! The links were helpful [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

01-23-2003, 04:47 PM	#11
Ultimatejoe Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Trent University, Peterborough, Ontario Posts: 125	The conception that all elves are reembodied in children was abandoned by Tolkien. __________________ Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using his intelligence; he is just using his memory. -Leonardo Da Vinci

01-23-2003, 05:00 PM	#12
Eru Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Middle Earth Posts: 71	then why do many elves who are dying state that it will be long ere they are released from Mandos? [ January 23, 2003: Message edited by: Eru ] __________________ "Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!"

01-24-2003, 03:13 AM	#13
Ultimatejoe Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Trent University, Peterborough, Ontario Posts: 125	Because in his later conception Tolkien had the elves being re-embodied in new bodies like their own, instead of being born into children. __________________ Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using his intelligence; he is just using his memory. -Leonardo Da Vinci

01-24-2003, 08:05 AM	#14
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	i.e. Glorfindel

01-25-2003, 08:27 AM	#15
Lyra Greenleaf The Diaphanous Dryad Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: R toL: 531, past the wild path Posts: 1,152	Please, does ANYONE know if all the elves went to Valinor, did Thranduil? __________________ “Sylphs of the forest,” I whispered. “Spirits of oak, beech and ash. Dryads of Rowan and hazel, hear us. You who have guided and guarded our every footstep, you who have sheltered our growth, we honour you." the Forbidden Link

01-27-2003, 11:14 AM	#16
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	I think the main consensus is htat most of the Silvan Elves and all the Avari remained in M-E and faided whilst the Sindar and Noldor for the most part would've passed west. Thranduil may have followed his son into the west. He also would've found his dad there, if he was re-incarnated. __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

01-27-2003, 11:50 AM	#17
Jurion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 85	Thranduil could have travelled to Aman, he is still an elf and the Summons of the Valar called for all of the elves to come to the west. Even the Avari could have gone later, though I think they still didn't go because they were reluctant to go at first. [ January 27, 2003: Message edited by: Jurion ]

01-27-2003, 12:57 PM	#18
Lyra Greenleaf The Diaphanous Dryad Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: R toL: 531, past the wild path Posts: 1,152	oh, another question I have is: was it possible for elves to go from Valinor to ME after the Noldor left? cos if Glorfindel was reincarnated in Mandos, how did he get back to Rivendell? __________________ “Sylphs of the forest,” I whispered. “Spirits of oak, beech and ash. Dryads of Rowan and hazel, hear us. You who have guided and guarded our every footstep, you who have sheltered our growth, we honour you." the Forbidden Link

01-28-2003, 04:04 AM	#19
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	I think it was possible in the second age,since valinor hadn't yet been taken off the face of the earth,and it is probable that Glorfindel came in the S.A. Some even say the Gildor Inglorion was from Valinor, because of his name INGLORION , scion of Inglor,a early name for Finrod,and since Finrod had no sons, (apart from Gil-Galad, for a brief time,but he seems to be everyones son) in M-E,we can assuemhe is a grandson or son of Finrod and his 'lover'in Valinor who was named, I think Amarie. In the Third Age the Istari were sent, though that was problably because they were sent by the Valar. [ January 28, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ] [ January 28, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ] __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone