IHOP - The International House of Panacea - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

alatar · 09-18-2009, 08:50 AM

First, this:

alatar · 09-18-2009, 08:58 AM

And now this:

So how did all of that work? Say, for example, you're some lonely scraggly traveler on the Great Road and you near Rivendell. Could you gain entrance? If so, how long could you stay? Would Elrond expect something in return for lodging, or could you eat from his tables and sleep in his house for as long as you wanted?

The Hobbits were special visitors, not only because of the burden Frodo carried but also because they had Gandalf as a friend and herald. Frodo too was considered an elf friend, and so surely that would help him at Rivendell.

Boromir was admitted as, assumedly, Elrond had some foresight that this human would be one of the Nine Walkers. The Dwarves too had a purpose that helped Elrond's cause, and having them in the Council brought more news to the fore. And even Bilbo's group of Dwarven companions stopped on their way, if I remembers rightly.

Aragorn lived there, and so of course had the run of the place. And I assume that all elves would be admitted and could stay as long as the Age lasted.

But again, what about me? Could I get in? How long could I stay? And would I have to pay?

Andsigil · 09-18-2009, 09:10 AM

I think most people shied away from Rivendell. If I remember correctly, even Boromir had some apprehensions about going up there.

I get the impression that elves were so insular that their reputations suffered. The mystique surrounding Galadriel and Lorien proved to be quite unjustified (at least in relation to men).

Some of this makes me wonder what kind of reputation Cirdan and they Grey Havens had in the late 3rd Age.

Inziladun · 09-18-2009, 09:31 AM

That's a nicely designed flier! The Prancing Pony must have had some of those in a stand with a sign over it saying "Eriador Attractions".

From the books, it appears that no one but Elves and Gandalf go to Rivendell on a regular basis. Even the Rangers (other than Aragorn, who, as you say was a special case) aren't mentioned as staying there, and you'd think they would be likely to do so if they could.
The most frequent travelers after them were probably Dwarves, and they likely would sleep in ditches filled with Trolls' bath water before they'd willingly put themselves at the hospitality of Elves.
Gandalf does appear to be the catalyst that brought 'outsiders' to Rivendell in most cases, and as his real identity was known to Elrond, his judgement was obviously trusted.
The Council was a unique event, and Elrond seems to have accepted that it was 'meant' to be, and that all who showed up for it should be admitted.
Beyond that, I think it was pretty much closed to the wanderer. After all, it was originally founded by Elrond as a 'refuge' and a 'stronghold', so you wouldn't think any old ragged wayfarer would be allowed to find it. Otherwise, couldn't the Witch-king possibly have infiltrated it somehow when he was warring with the Dúnedain?

Mnemosyne · 09-18-2009, 01:54 PM

I wonder if Vilya was able to create a miniature, less effective version of the Girdle of Melian?

That way earlier in the Age if people were fleeing across the mountains due to turmoil there could be some way that the Last Homely House would be made nice and Homely, but less of a security threat, since anyone evil wouldn't even find it, right?

Just trying to figure out ways to square Rivendell's generosity away with its hidden nature.

Mithalwen · 09-18-2009, 02:51 PM

Brilliant Alatar!

I seem to remember from the Hobbit that Rivendell was pretty well hidden - even Gandalf struggled a bit finding the way. We don't get a description of the last stage of the hobbits' journey in but they were with Glorfindel and Aragorn who obviously knew the way. The Dunedain would probably know since they were semi-based there but I doubt its exact location was widely known among non-Rivendell elves. Legolas probably knew through contact with Gandalf and Aragorn re Gollum's capture (if not from family connection with Celeborn who had lived there a while).

Boromir found it either because he was "meant to" or because in such times the elves were not complacent enough to rely on geography and enchantment and set a watch and found him. We know that other elves than Glorfindel were sent out to look for Frodo - maybe one of those found Boromir in the vicinity.

skip spence · 09-18-2009, 02:58 PM

For now I'll settle with applauding the op. Rated three silmarils indeed!

Andsigil · 09-18-2009, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Brilliant Alatar!

I seem to remember from the Hobbit that Rivendell was pretty well hidden - even Gandalf struggled a bit finding the way. We don't get a description of the last stage of the hobbits' journey in but they were with Glorfindel and Aragorn who obviously knew the way. The Dunedain would probably know since they were semi-based there but I doubt its exact location was widely known among non-Rivendell elves. Legolas probably knew through contact with Gandalf and Aragorn re Gollum's capture (if not from family connection with Celeborn who had lived there a while).

Boromir found it either because he was "meant to" or because in such times the elves were not complacent enough to rely on geography and enchantment and set a watch and found him. We know that other elves than Glorfindel were sent out to look for Frodo - maybe one of those found Boromir in the vicinity.

As a side question in this thread, what in the world made people so ignorant of other lands in Middle Earth? The distances between, say, Rivendell and Gondor were not that great. And Lorien was even closer to Minas Tirith. I can't believe that, for hundreds of years, there was no commerce, let alone contact (wouldn't the men of Gondor have been smoking Old Toby?).

It's as if everyone "went Tokugawa" in the 3rd Age, but there really is no clear explanation as to why.

PrinceOfTheHalflings · 09-23-2009, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

The Hobbits were special visitors, not only because of the burden Frodo carried but also because they had Gandalf as a friend and herald. Frodo too was considered an elf friend, and so surely that would help him at Rivendell.

Boromir was admitted as, assumedly, Elrond had some foresight that this human would be one of the Nine Walkers. The Dwarves too had a purpose that helped Elrond's cause, and having them in the Council brought more news to the fore. And even Bilbo's group of Dwarven companions stopped on their way, if I remembers rightly.

Aragorn lived there, and so of course had the run of the place. And I assume that all elves would be admitted and could stay as long as the Age lasted.

The Dwarves were invited ... as was Legolas. Frodo not only had Gandalf (and Aragorn) as a friend but also Bilbo.

Boromir (and Faramir) had a dream that directed him towards Imladris, so I suppose you could say he was fated to go there. Perhaps Elrond had some knowledge of Boromir's dream?

In any case Boromir would have been recognised by Gandalf, and possibly Aragorn. Besides, Elrond should have been happy to receive an important emissary from Minas Tirith - if only because it meant that he could start charging extra for the newly-christened "Boromir Suite"!

Nazgûl-king · 12-09-2009, 03:54 PM

Nice flier! Perhaps with Rivendell we see a bit of the Greek idea of Xenia, in fact I notice a lot of places and people in Middle-earth show some of the idea. Xenia involves taking in a person, finding out about them, giving them food and drink, and entertaining them. There is also a gift exchange and the person who was the guest would show the person that was the host the same hospitality should that person come around where they live.

alatar · 12-09-2009, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nazgûl-king

Nice flier! Perhaps with Rivendell we see a bit of the Greek idea of Xenia, in fact I notice a lot of places and people in Middle-earth show some of the idea. Xenia involves taking in a person, finding out about them, giving them food and drink, and entertaining them. There is also a gift exchange and the person who was the guest would show the person that was the host the same hospitality should that person come around where they live.

Thanks. On one particular business excursion across the pond, our clients took us out one night to a nice restaurant in or near Oxford, then gave us a very informative walking tour of the same. We even walked by the Eagle and Child, though I didn't get the chance to go inside.

I try to keep this in mind when we are visited, though shamefully I don't know (or seem to be able to remember) the same amount of detail about my home base.

Then again, we tear down any place more than a 100 years old to make way for Big Box Marts.

09-18-2009, 08:50 AM	#1
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	IHOP - The International House of Panacea First, this: __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

09-18-2009, 08:58 AM	#2
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	And now this: So how did all of that work? Say, for example, you're some lonely scraggly traveler on the Great Road and you near Rivendell. Could you gain entrance? If so, how long could you stay? Would Elrond expect something in return for lodging, or could you eat from his tables and sleep in his house for as long as you wanted? The Hobbits were special visitors, not only because of the burden Frodo carried but also because they had Gandalf as a friend and herald. Frodo too was considered an elf friend, and so surely that would help him at Rivendell. Boromir was admitted as, assumedly, Elrond had some foresight that this human would be one of the Nine Walkers. The Dwarves too had a purpose that helped Elrond's cause, and having them in the Council brought more news to the fore. And even Bilbo's group of Dwarven companions stopped on their way, if I remembers rightly. Aragorn lived there, and so of course had the run of the place. And I assume that all elves would be admitted and could stay as long as the Age lasted. But again, what about me? Could I get in? How long could I stay? And would I have to pay? __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

09-18-2009, 09:10 AM	#3
Andsigil Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: The Deepest Forges of Ered Luin Posts: 733	I think most people shied away from Rivendell. If I remember correctly, even Boromir had some apprehensions about going up there. I get the impression that elves were so insular that their reputations suffered. The mystique surrounding Galadriel and Lorien proved to be quite unjustified (at least in relation to men). Some of this makes me wonder what kind of reputation Cirdan and they Grey Havens had in the late 3rd Age. __________________ Even as fog continues to lie in the valleys, so does ancient sin cling to the low places, the depression in the world consciousness.

09-18-2009, 09:31 AM	#4
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,037	That's a nicely designed flier! The Prancing Pony must have had some of those in a stand with a sign over it saying "Eriador Attractions". From the books, it appears that no one but Elves and Gandalf go to Rivendell on a regular basis. Even the Rangers (other than Aragorn, who, as you say was a special case) aren't mentioned as staying there, and you'd think they would be likely to do so if they could. The most frequent travelers after them were probably Dwarves, and they likely would sleep in ditches filled with Trolls' bath water before they'd willingly put themselves at the hospitality of Elves. Gandalf does appear to be the catalyst that brought 'outsiders' to Rivendell in most cases, and as his real identity was known to Elrond, his judgement was obviously trusted. The Council was a unique event, and Elrond seems to have accepted that it was 'meant' to be, and that all who showed up for it should be admitted. Beyond that, I think it was pretty much closed to the wanderer. After all, it was originally founded by Elrond as a 'refuge' and a 'stronghold', so you wouldn't think any old ragged wayfarer would be allowed to find it. Otherwise, couldn't the Witch-king possibly have infiltrated it somehow when he was warring with the Dúnedain? __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

09-18-2009, 01:54 PM	#5
Mnemosyne Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Between the past and the future Posts: 1,159	I wonder if Vilya was able to create a miniature, less effective version of the Girdle of Melian? That way earlier in the Age if people were fleeing across the mountains due to turmoil there could be some way that the Last Homely House would be made nice and Homely, but less of a security threat, since anyone evil wouldn't even find it, right? Just trying to figure out ways to square Rivendell's generosity away with its hidden nature. __________________ Got corsets?

09-18-2009, 02:51 PM	#6
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,458	Brilliant Alatar! I seem to remember from the Hobbit that Rivendell was pretty well hidden - even Gandalf struggled a bit finding the way. We don't get a description of the last stage of the hobbits' journey in but they were with Glorfindel and Aragorn who obviously knew the way. The Dunedain would probably know since they were semi-based there but I doubt its exact location was widely known among non-Rivendell elves. Legolas probably knew through contact with Gandalf and Aragorn re Gollum's capture (if not from family connection with Celeborn who had lived there a while). Boromir found it either because he was "meant to" or because in such times the elves were not complacent enough to rely on geography and enchantment and set a watch and found him. We know that other elves than Glorfindel were sent out to look for Frodo - maybe one of those found Boromir in the vicinity.

09-18-2009, 02:58 PM	#7
skip spence shadow of a doubt Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Back on the streets Posts: 1,125	For now I'll settle with applauding the op. Rated three silmarils indeed! __________________ "You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way" ~ Bob Dylan

12-09-2009, 03:54 PM	#10
Nazgûl-king Wight Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 104	Nice flier! Perhaps with Rivendell we see a bit of the Greek idea of Xenia, in fact I notice a lot of places and people in Middle-earth show some of the idea. Xenia involves taking in a person, finding out about them, giving them food and drink, and entertaining them. There is also a gift exchange and the person who was the guest would show the person that was the host the same hospitality should that person come around where they live.