The anatomy of Glaurung - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

skip spence · 08-02-2009, 05:15 AM

I am fascinated by Glaurung but I never really could visualize for myself just how the father of Dragons looks like. This is an attempt to clear this out, hopefully with some help. It is a fact that he is a great reptilian-like creature with four legs. He cannot fly, but walks the earth, but how does he move about? Does he crawl on his belly like a huge snake, or would he hoist up his bulk over the ground and walk or run upright (the horror!). To be honest the last part can’t be right, all accounts tell of a crawling snakelike Glaurung. He is a Worm after all and to me that signifies a snakelike creature. But what is a “Worm”, from where did Tolkien get this term? Anyway, Glaurungs undersides was “pale and wrinkled … and all dank with a grey slime, to which clung all manner of dropping filth…”, and this is no doubt the fabled soft belly of a snake that Turin speak of. A dragon’s curse and only weak spot. The manner of movement this makes possible comes in handy quite often though, as Glaurung often sort of glides up and surprises people in CoH. Obviously he can move about almost without sound if he wishes to.

A major problem with the soft slimy belly is the immense heat that seems to emancipate from the great Worm at most times. He enters a river and it boils instantly, people near him almost faint from the heat and stench. Yet he has a slimy belly. Man, he must be gliding around on hot wax.

His upper side is covered by impenetrable armor. Do you think it would have been a bony, crocodilian crust, or thick, snakelike scales or something completely different? And what about his legs? Given that he crawls on his belly they must have been of limited use moving about. Rather used to grab onto things, such as dwarves and ponies, I suppose. One thing is certain, Glaurung has a long and powerful neck for he is able to coil back from swords and tower above his hapless victims. This would indicate an even longer tail end for balancing purposes. Yes, the more I think about it, Glaurung must basically have looked like a huge snake. Perhaps proportionately a bit thicker and shorter than most snakes, but still. His legs must have been rather modest appendixes with much less power than in his tail, yet certainly strong enough to squish a few dwarves with I suppose.

Oh and he talks too of course! Does Glaurung have vocal chords, lips and for the purpose a functional tongue? Hardly think so eh?

Nerwen · 08-02-2009, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skip spence

Oh and he talks too of course! Does Glaurung have vocal chords, lips and for the purpose a functional tongue? Hardly think so eh?

Well, if we want to get all scientific-like, perhaps he has a syrinx.

Morthoron · 08-02-2009, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Well, if we want to get all scientific-like, perhaps he has a syrinx.

I didn't know Glaurung liked '2112' from Rush:
http://new.music.yahoo.com/rush/trac...yrinx--1636871

skip spence · 08-02-2009, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Well, if we want to get all scientific-like, perhaps he has a syrinx.

I think it would be a huge mistake to get all scientific, but disregarding that, good idea!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morth

I didn't know Glaurung liked '2112' from Rush:

Haha. But I dunno, I always figured Glaurung were more into classical, you know Bach and the like.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beth

You can check out one use in my sig.

Hey now, how would I do that, dear? ;-)

Quote:

Perhaps Eönwë or The Squatter of Amon Rûdh can tell us more.

I sure hope so. Paint us a picture of Glaurung the Worm!

Eönwë · 08-02-2009, 02:53 PM

Well, what I do know is that wyrm also can mean "serpent".

What I did find through Wikipedia is this 17th century Icelandic picture of Níðhöggr (Nidhogg) gnawing at the roots of Yggdrasill:

Looking at this, I'd say it looks pretty serpent-like.
Also, since Tolkien was inspired by Norse and Germanic mythology, I assume that he definitely uses their descriptions of dragons as inspiration and was familiar with the Northern European style of dragon.

As for modern adaptations of Norse dragons, I rather like the look of dragon in Sword of Xanten (here's a clip on youtube of it), which is Fafnir (and we know Tolkien liked this story - Also notice that in this movie he uses the term "Worm")

Obviously, this is only one example, and Tolkien tells us that they have four legs, which leads me to think that they are maybe more crocodillian. Because I can't imagine a dragon walking like a lizard, I'd say that their legs would be similar to a crocodile's, where they are only "half-raised", not fully like mammals or dinosaurs, but not all the way down like most lizards. I think that they waould walk a bit like this, and would look more like this, when resting, though I imagine to have a larger, rounder underside than crocodiles and more like some early dinosaurs or pre-dinosaur reptiles.

If we're going for realistic examples, perhaps they looked a bit like Dimetrodon's without the sail, or maybe more like a Proterogyrinus (the reptile in the picture). Or maybe more therapsid (mammal-like reptiles) such as Estemmenosuchus or Bauria. Or perhaps, if they're skinnier like worms, A Doswellia would be more appropriate. Though I would personally go for a cross between a Moschops and a Doswellia.

Ok, I've probably bored you all with knowledge of early reptiles, but I was just trying to show examples of creatures from the animal world (however extinct), which I think are similar to the Worms of Middle Earth. Obviously Tolkien did try to make his animals really work, so that's why I was taking the scientific approach here as well.

Rumil · 08-02-2009, 03:51 PM

I'd go for Glauring looking much like Smaug, except bigger, badder and wingless.

eg.

skip spence · 08-03-2009, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Obviously, this is only one example, and Tolkien tells us that they have four legs, which leads me to think that they are maybe more crocodillian. Because I can't imagine a dragon walking like a lizard, I'd say that their legs would be similar to a crocodile's, where they are only "half-raised", not fully like mammals or dinosaurs, but not all the way down like most lizards. I think that they waould walk a bit like this, and would look more like this, when resting, though I imagine to have a larger, rounder underside than crocodiles and more like some early dinosaurs or pre-dinosaur reptiles.

If we're going for realistic examples, perhaps they looked a bit like Dimetrodon's without the sail, or maybe more like a Proterogyrinus (the reptile in the picture). Or maybe more therapsid (mammal-like reptiles) such as Estemmenosuchus or Bauria. Or perhaps, if they're skinnier like worms, A Doswellia would be more appropriate. Though I would personally go for a cross between a Moschops and a Doswellia.

Ok, I've probably bored you all with knowledge of early reptiles, but I was just trying to show examples of creatures from the animal world (however extinct), which I think are similar to the Worms of Middle Earth. Obviously Tolkien did try to make his animals really work, so that's why I was taking the scientific approach here as well.

Cheers, those are some nice reptiles there, and at least I am not bored, quite the opposite. However, as I said, I don't believe Glaurung walked at all, so none of them quite resemble how I imagine the Dragon. Now, after browsing my books, I'm quite certain Glaurung crawled with his belly on the ground like a huge snake. Possibly (now I'm speculating) he could surprise his enemies by suddenly lifting his heavy body above ground and rushing towards them in a fit of rage, running much like a lizard. This would be extremely wearisome though, and not something he would try unless pushed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Silm

In his rage Glaurung turned and struck down Azaghal ... and crawled over him ...

Why crawl over somebody, if you can trample him?

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoH

...suddenly Glaurung came forth with a great blast of fire, and crawled down into the stream...

A bit later:

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoH

But he was slow now and stealthy; for the fires in him were burned low; great power had gone out of him, and he would rest and sleep in the dark. Thus he writhed through the water and slunk up to the doors like a huge snake, ashen-grey, sliming the ground with his belly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoH

But Túrin drawing back his sword stabbed at his eyes; and Glaurung coiling back swiftly towered above him ...

If Glaurung had a shortish neck, like all the creatures you've provided pictures of, this move would've been hard to pull off. Well, that Doswellia fella perhaps could do something like that.

And how big was Glaurung, you think?

The only real clue here, as far as I'm aware, is his his attempted crossing of Cabed-en-Aras, where Túrin slays him. Across it a deer once jumped, it is said. Now, how far can a deer leap? 10 metres perhaps? Now imagine a lithe but very heavy Glaurung attempting to hurl his fore-body across a 10 metre gorge. How big does he need to be in order to pull that off? I suppose the distance between his hind and fore legs would be longer that the width of the gorge, or Túrin would not have gotten the chance to stab at his vitals. However, if he was snakelike, he wouldn't need to hurl himself across so recklessly if he were that long. Hm, tricky this...
.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rumil

I'd go for Glauring looking much like Smaug, except bigger, badder and wingless.

I pretty much agree to that. Tolkien isn't the greatest illustrator the world has known though, and it is hard to picture that creature actually flying.

FeRaL sHaDoW · 08-04-2009, 02:48 AM

Interesting ideas, I have always seen Glauring looking like a large komodo dragon of sorts. (Yes I am throwing another creature into the mix

) They do kind of slither about as they walk and can run quite fast when they need to. They look very similar to the many creatures that Eönwë was thinking of. Video

Bêthberry · 08-05-2009, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skip spence

I pretty much agree to that. Tolkien isn't the greatest illustrator the world has known though, and it is hard to picture that creature actually flying.

I suppose things hinge on what one wants in an illustrator.

Tolkien's artwork doesn't belong to the realistic tradition but to the Arts and Craft Movement. Think of the Pre-Raphaelite artists. The art belongs to a tradition of romantic idealism rather than to documentary realism.

So, for me, I rather like the quirkiness of his drawings. His Smaug captures Smaug's lust for his hoard and that's all that matters there, in my opinion. And there's a primitiveness to his Glorund that is quite anthropologically intriguing as I see it even though the drawing isn't in perspective.

Maybe Tolkien's dragons aren't terrifying, but they are satisfying in their own way.

Bêthberry · 08-02-2009, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skip spence

. He is a Worm after all and to me that signifies a snakelike creature. But what is a “Worm”, from where did Tolkien get this term?

"Worm" comes from the Old English word, wyrm, meaning "dragon." (There are several OE words for dragon.) It is used a fair bit in Beowulf, one of Tolkien's favourite poems. You can check out one use in my sig.

Perhaps Eönwë or The Squatter of Amon Rûdh can tell us more.

08-02-2009, 05:15 AM	#1
skip spence shadow of a doubt Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Back on the streets Posts: 1,125	The anatomy of Glaurung I am fascinated by Glaurung but I never really could visualize for myself just how the father of Dragons looks like. This is an attempt to clear this out, hopefully with some help. It is a fact that he is a great reptilian-like creature with four legs. He cannot fly, but walks the earth, but how does he move about? Does he crawl on his belly like a huge snake, or would he hoist up his bulk over the ground and walk or run upright (the horror!). To be honest the last part can’t be right, all accounts tell of a crawling snakelike Glaurung. He is a Worm after all and to me that signifies a snakelike creature. But what is a “Worm”, from where did Tolkien get this term? Anyway, Glaurungs undersides was “pale and wrinkled … and all dank with a grey slime, to which clung all manner of dropping filth…”, and this is no doubt the fabled soft belly of a snake that Turin speak of. A dragon’s curse and only weak spot. The manner of movement this makes possible comes in handy quite often though, as Glaurung often sort of glides up and surprises people in CoH. Obviously he can move about almost without sound if he wishes to. A major problem with the soft slimy belly is the immense heat that seems to emancipate from the great Worm at most times. He enters a river and it boils instantly, people near him almost faint from the heat and stench. Yet he has a slimy belly. Man, he must be gliding around on hot wax. His upper side is covered by impenetrable armor. Do you think it would have been a bony, crocodilian crust, or thick, snakelike scales or something completely different? And what about his legs? Given that he crawls on his belly they must have been of limited use moving about. Rather used to grab onto things, such as dwarves and ponies, I suppose. One thing is certain, Glaurung has a long and powerful neck for he is able to coil back from swords and tower above his hapless victims. This would indicate an even longer tail end for balancing purposes. Yes, the more I think about it, Glaurung must basically have looked like a huge snake. Perhaps proportionately a bit thicker and shorter than most snakes, but still. His legs must have been rather modest appendixes with much less power than in his tail, yet certainly strong enough to squish a few dwarves with I suppose. Oh and he talks too of course! Does Glaurung have vocal chords, lips and for the purpose a functional tongue? Hardly think so eh? __________________ "You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way" ~ Bob Dylan Last edited by skip spence; 08-02-2009 at 10:05 AM. Reason: grammar

08-02-2009, 02:53 PM	#5
Eönwë Flame Imperishable Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Right here Posts: 3,928	Well, what I do know is that wyrm also can mean "serpent". What I did find through Wikipedia is this 17th century Icelandic picture of Níðhöggr (Nidhogg) gnawing at the roots of Yggdrasill: Looking at this, I'd say it looks pretty serpent-like. Also, since Tolkien was inspired by Norse and Germanic mythology, I assume that he definitely uses their descriptions of dragons as inspiration and was familiar with the Northern European style of dragon. As for modern adaptations of Norse dragons, I rather like the look of dragon in Sword of Xanten (here's a clip on youtube of it), which is Fafnir (and we know Tolkien liked this story - Also notice that in this movie he uses the term "Worm") Obviously, this is only one example, and Tolkien tells us that they have four legs, which leads me to think that they are maybe more crocodillian. Because I can't imagine a dragon walking like a lizard, I'd say that their legs would be similar to a crocodile's, where they are only "half-raised", not fully like mammals or dinosaurs, but not all the way down like most lizards. I think that they waould walk a bit like this, and would look more like this, when resting, though I imagine to have a larger, rounder underside than crocodiles and more like some early dinosaurs or pre-dinosaur reptiles. If we're going for realistic examples, perhaps they looked a bit like Dimetrodon's without the sail, or maybe more like a Proterogyrinus (the reptile in the picture). Or maybe more therapsid (mammal-like reptiles) such as Estemmenosuchus or Bauria. Or perhaps, if they're skinnier like worms, A Doswellia would be more appropriate. Though I would personally go for a cross between a Moschops and a Doswellia. Ok, I've probably bored you all with knowledge of early reptiles, but I was just trying to show examples of creatures from the animal world (however extinct), which I think are similar to the Worms of Middle Earth. Obviously Tolkien did try to make his animals really work, so that's why I was taking the scientific approach here as well. __________________ Welcome to the Barrow Do-owns Forum / Such a lovely place Last edited by Eönwë; 08-02-2009 at 02:58 PM. Reason: missed some words

08-02-2009, 03:51 PM	#6
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	Wyrm I'd go for Glauring looking much like Smaug, except bigger, badder and wingless. eg. __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

08-04-2009, 02:48 AM	#8
FeRaL sHaDoW Wight Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 232	Interesting ideas, I have always seen Glauring looking like a large komodo dragon of sorts. (Yes I am throwing another creature into the mix) They do kind of slither about as they walk and can run quite fast when they need to. They look very similar to the many creatures that Eönwë was thinking of. Video __________________ God created night, but man created darkness....