Turin=Achilles?

[Tuor in Gondolin]

In reading the Iliad (well, okay, listening to a cd lecture by Elizabeth
Vandiver) I noticed an increasingly interesting parallel between
Achilles and Turin. Given Tolkien's schooling in Greek language and
history, I wonder how much was conscious and are there other classical
parallels mto Middle-earth personages (I tend to view the valar as more
archangels then Greek/Roman gods, but still...).
Granted, Tolkien says the chief inspiration was the Kullervo, there
seem to be interesting Achilles similarities.

Consider Achilles/Turin:
1) He's the greatest warrior in archaic Greek mythology
2) They both have tempers and make rash decisions and then
stubbornly hold to them- Turin won't go back to Menegroth and
Achilles won't rejoin battle even though Agamemnon handsomely
apologizes for swiping Achilles concubine
3) Both die young, fighting as warriors and achieve great things
for their sides---Achilles kills Hector, Turin kills Glaurung
4) They both have cranky superiors who tick them off
(Agamemnon and Thingol)
5) Both have a hand in their best friend's deaths (Achilles by
letting Petroclos use his armor)
6) Both unjustly kill people due to their rash temper
(Achilles the young son of Priam-Lykaon, and Turin Brandir).
The commentary by professor Vandiver on Achilles could be easily
transposed to Turin:

He kills entirely without pity. He kills even when he should
not. Even when he ought to show mercy. He kills inappropriately.

7) Both Achilles and Turin's fate are largely predetermined, unless they,
in effect for their milieus (sp.?) choosing cowardice, eschew prowess in
battle: Achilles by choosing a quiet life without lasting fame and Turin by
abandoning his (granted frequently misguided) defending those he
holds dear, his family and former home and Finduilas and Menegroth.

Btw, both Agamemnon and Thingol seek to repair their relationships
with their prickly warriors and their overtures are both rebuffed.

What do you think? Any other possible Middle-earth classical parallels?

[Hakon]

Speaking of Turin you can compare him to Kullervo from Finnish myth. They both share similar lives. Both had fallen in love with their sisters and both sisters killed themselves. Both had a huge temper. They also share similar swords and slay a powerful enemy. For Turin it is Glaurung and for Kullervo it is Untamo.

The ring itself has roots in Norse Mythology. The story of the Hobbit itself is similar to Beowulf.

[Pitchwife]

Nice idea, Tuor! I always saw Túrin more as a blend of Kullervo and Sigurd the Volsung, but now you mention it, the parallels with Achilles look quite convincing, and I'd like to add another one:
8) Both show pity to an elder person they first perceived as an enemy - Achilles to Priamos, Túrin to Mîm the dwarf; in both cases after either the hero himself or one of his companions killed the elder guy's son. (Gosh, this sounds like One Thing in Common! )

Interestingly, Achilles and Sigurd share the trait of invulnerability except for one weak spot, but I suppose Tolkien found this mythological motif too hackneyed and therefore decided not to use it.

Other classical parallels? Hmmm... If Tolkien had ever got round to telling the voyages of Eärendil before he reached Valinor, we might have a Middle Earth Odyssey. And the story of Beren and Lúthien could be seen as a version of Orpheus and Eurydice with roles reversed (note that Lúthien touched Mandos' heart by singing before him!) and Lúthien-Eurydice succeeding where Orpheus failed.

[Hakon]

Aragorn is somewhat similar to King Arthur and Gandalf to Merlin.

[Pitchwife]

Hakon: brief but true. Let me elaborate:
Aragorn and King Arthur - the obvious parallel that comes to my mind is that both of them had a famous sword which represented their royal legacy and their right to kingdom.
(À propos, and elaborating on a side-thought in my last post: it might be interesting to consider which mythological motifs Tolkien did not use; e.g. no sword retrieved by the hero from a lake, stone, anvil, tree or other receptacle reluctant to release the blade. Might tell us a lot about the difference between Tolkien and post-Tolkien commercial fantasy.)
Also, both Aragorn and Arthur came into their kingdom after a long time in rather infamous positions (although in different phases of their lives) - Aragorn as the Ranger Strider, Arthur as Sir Ector's ward.
Finally, both of them represent an archetype of the ideal King that appeals even to die-hard democrats like myself (but that would be another topic).

Gandalf and Merlin - yep, the two archetypal wizards of world literature; I defy everybody to find a third! And both of them act as counselors to the Ideal King (see above). (Unfortunately, there's no Vivian/Nimue for Gandalf; but fortunately, this means he doesn't have to spend idle centuries banished into a haythorn hedge...)

But what Tuor is aiming at in this thread is parallels between Tolkien's Legendarium and classical=Greek/Roman mythology. The Norse and Celtic influences on Tolkien are quite well known and have been discussed any number of times (not that it can hurt to rehash them once more, especially the Kalevala connection), unlike parallels between Middle Earth and ancient mediterranean mythology, which are still largely terra incognita.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

pitchwife's comments on Galdalf/Merlin are interesting.
I vaguely feel like there should be/are other parallels.

As to the classical, specifically Greek, influences on Tolkiien,
there are some intereting suggestions in HC's Biography:

Already when beginning to learn Greek he had
entertained himself by making up Greek-style words

and

He ('Dickie' Reynolds) was not particularly successful
(in teaching English literature) with Ronald Tolkien, who preferred
Latin and Greek poetry to Milton and Keats.

Someone who was so committed to the history (real or created)
behind languages might well have been more influenced by
Latin and Greek vis-a-vis Scandinavian/northern European then
is generally thought to be the case, especially since said influence
was strongest in his schoolboy years (obviously important
formulatively) then college/university years with Finnish and
such.
Just a thought.

[Hakon]

Also with Arthur and Aragorn you have the guiding figure. For Arthur it was Merlin and for Aragorn it was Elrond early on.

Also Numenor is similar to Atlantis. Both were like the ideal societies and both got sunk into the ocean. Both had a sort of divine ruler, for Atlantis it was Poseidon and for Numenor it was Elros.

The Battle of Helm's Deep is also comparable to Troy only in this case the roles are sort of reversed. The good is defending in this case rather than attacking.

[Nazgûl-king]

Having just finished a Classical Mythology class in college I thought I would pop into this thread.

As has been mentioned Turin is quite similar to Oedipus, though I do see some similarities between him and Achilles as well, Beren and Luthien are kind of similar to Orpheus and Eurydice, and some of the valar are similar to the Greek gods (for example Aule is like Hephaestus/Vulcan both being craftsman, and Ulmo is kind of like Poseidon/Neptune being the guy in charge of waters).

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The Nibelungenlied/Volsunga Saga is interesting in that it does a turnabout in the middle: in the first half we're led to sympathize with Siegfried/Sigurd and Kriemhild/Gudrun and may tend to view Hagen/Högni as evil, but in the second half, when they're about to be butchered by the Huns, we (I, at least) sympathize with Hagen/Högni and Gunther/Gunnar and admire their bravery against huge odds.

Probably due to the legend in the forms we have it being a composite stitched together from originally separate stories. The deaths of the Gibichungs at Atli/Etzel's court is a distant, garbled recollection of the destruction of the Burgundians by the Huns in the fifth century. The Siegmund/Siegfried legend (or legends) at some point were grafted on.

[Nazgûl-king]

Also it is interesting that the city of Gondolin had seven gates and the city of Thebes had seven gates. Perhaps this is another place where mythology had influence in Tolkien's works.