Will of the Nazgul/Creating More Nazgul

[JeffF.]

It is stated several times in the LotR that the Nazgul had no will but Sauron's and/or they were enslaved to his will. Given the description of the Nazgul in Unfinished Tales, The Hunt For The Ring, it seems that this statement is not entirely accurate. After the unsuccessful hunt in the Vales of Anduin Sauron sends messengers whose words "fill even the Morgul Lord with dismay." In RotK Frodo and Sam see a Nazgul overhead which the narrative states is sending word to Sauron of the Lord of the Nazgul's demise.

The description that they had no will but Sauron's implies that everything they did even to the smallest detail, was Sauron's decision (which he would have to do if they truly had "no will" but his).

In the Hunt for the Ring and in the Siege of Minas Tirith/Battle of Pelennor Fields the Lord of the Nazgul makes many decisions as he deploys and redeploys his fellow Nazgul and/or armies.

A more accurate description would be that the Nazgul could not act counter to his will. They could not put on the One Ring if they found it if Sauron forbade them to do it and would return it but they could decide how they would return it if for example their steeds were killed. When acting as Captains on a field of battle, they would make the decisions like deploying Siege Towers against the Minas Tirith walls to tie down defenders, catapulting heads of the slain Gondor soldiers to demoralize the defenders and brining Grond to bear against the city's gates.


I've also wondered why Sauron did not 'make' more Nazgul since they were his greatest servants. The fact that he did not implies that Celembrimbor used some craft, art or skill that was beyond the ability of Sauron. Evidently Sauron could not simply re-give the Nine Rings for Men to a new set of Sorcerers, Kings and Warriors that he intended to enslave once the original holders were enslaved to his will. This implies that the Nine could only enslave one person at a time. It would seem that it would be to his great benefit for Sauron to create more Nazgul even if the cost was enslaving the original set to the new set or vice versa.

The Rings of Power seem also to have been made SPECFICALLY for either Men or Dwarves (or the Three for Elves). Sauron had recovered three of the Seven Rings for Dwarves. Finding they did not enslave Dwarves the way the Nine did Men he evidently did not have the option of simply giving these three Dwarf intended rings to Men to enslave them and create three more Nazgul .

[Hakon]

The other thing is getting stabbed by a morgul blade is supposed to turn you into a wraith like the Nazgul. That would have been a very easy way to create more Nazgul.

[radagastly]

Originally posted by JeffF. :

The Rings of Power seem also to have been made SPECFICALLY for either Men or Dwarves (or the Three for Elves). Sauron had recovered three of the Seven Rings for Dwarves. Finding they did not enslave Dwarves the way the Nine did Men he evidently did not have the option of simply giving these three Dwarf intended rings to Men to enslave them and create three more Nazgul .

This is by no means certain. While Celebrimbor certainly seems to have known and respected both Numenor and Moria, it would seem very out of character for him to spend (i.e. waste) any time or energy or effort making Rings of Power for them, unasked for, unpaid for, unwanted. I believe all nineteen of the Great Rings were intended for the elves. Whatever 'grand scheme' Celebrimbor may have been contemplating, if any, by creating them, we will never exactly know. I just don't think he would have bothered to create them specifically for either men or dwarves.

Furthermore, there's no way to know that the three Dwarf-rings are, in fact, idle. I have long held a theory (which cannot be substantiated, I admit) that the Mouth of Sauron bears one of these Rings, and is well on his way to becoming a tenth Nazgul. He's just not there yet. He's a black Numenorean, like the Witch-King; he's a magician and sorceror, like the Witch-King. How many lives of men does it take to forget one's own name? Yet he has. How many more to forget one's own SELF as the Nazgul have? Yet he speaks Sauron's mind and thoughts, not his own.

As I said, I can find no text to substantiate this as a theory, except the comparisons I have mentioned. I find nothing to contradict it either. Mostly though, I find it difficult to accept that Sauron would leave three Rings of Power unused, locked up in a box in Barad-dur when he is on the verge of fighting the war to (almost) end all wars.

[Hakon]

You are not the only one with that theory about the Mouth of Sauron. It is also on Tolkien Gateway. Mouth of Sauron

[radagastly]

Originally posted by Hakon:

You are not the only one with that theory about the Mouth of Sauron. It is also on Tolkien Gateway.

Good to know I'm not alone. It also mentions he may have been the messenger sent to Dale and the Lonely Mountain. He reminded me of that as well, though it's equally difficult to prove.

[Mithadan]

I do not think any of the Rings were intended for Men or Dwarves. LoTR is a bit ambiguous on this issue. In The Shadow of the Past Gandalf tells Frodo as follows:

The Three, fairest of all, the Elf-lords hid from him, and his hand never touched them or sullied them. Seven the Dwarf-kings possessed, but three he has recovered, and the others the dragons have consumed. Nine he gave to Mortal Men, proud and great, and so ensnared them.

In The Council of Elrond it is stated only that the Three were hid by Celebrimbor. So from LoTR it is clear that Sauron gave at least the Nine to Men, but how the Dwarves got the Seven is not clear.

In Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, it is explicitly stated that when Sauron first put on the One Ring the Elves were aware of him and took off their Rings. Sauron then demanded that all the Rings be turned over to him. When Celebrimbor refused, war ensued and the Three were borne away and hidden.

But Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle-earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind. Seven rings he gave to the Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine, for Men proved in this matter as in all others the readiest to his will And all those rings that he governed he perverted, the more easily since he had a part in their making.

So the Three, the Seven and the Nine were made and held by the Elves (made with Sauron's aid as to the Seven and the Nine) for their own use and the Dwarves and Men were given them by Sauron to give them "secret power beyond the measure of their kind."

The Three were made to preserve and heal and enhanced the power of their bearers to do so. The precise purposes of the Seven and the Nine are not known, but presumably, to some extent, they enhanced the natural abilities, power and desires of those who bore them. Thus the Dwarves who bore them became even more wealthy and skilled, for example, but being perverted by Sauron they also enhanced the Dwarves' natural tendency to be greedy as well.

Could the Three Dwarven Rings that Sauron recovered have been used to make more Ring Wraiths? Pure speculation, but perhaps. We don't know when Sauron recovered any other than Thrain's Ring (T.A. 2845) but that is said to be the last of the Dwarven rings he recovered. Sauron entered Dol Guldur around T.A. 1100. It seems as if he would have plenty of time to create new wraiths, assuming he could do so. Maybe the "secret powers" of the Dwarven rings were simply not suited for this purpose. Or maybe Sauron kept them to gather their power to himself.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Hakon

The other thing is getting stabbed by a morgul blade is supposed to turn you into a wraith like the Nazgul. That would have been a very easy way to create more Nazgul.

Well Not sure about that, I think They'd become LIKE the Wraiths but far less powerful

[Flame of Anor]

It seems to me that when we are talking about Sauron putting on the one ring and the Elves then take off theirs, we are talking about the Three elven rings.

But to me, as i understand it, the three rings were untouched by Sauron so why would he putting on the one ring do anything to the three rings at all.

I think, as was stated earlier, that the 9 and 7 rings were originally meant for the Elves alone. They made them and why would they just willingly give away a craft of their labor. So they made these 16 rings for themselves, and the three in secret, and when Sauron put on the one the Elves with the 16 took them off because they knew his plan then, but the holders of the three had nothing to fear.

Angered, Sauron demanded the 16 rings be give to him but the Elves refused and he initiated the War of the Elves and Sauron to take back the rings, of which he did from Celebrimbor. But the three rings he did not seek because he did not know of them.

From what I've read Sauron started the War of the Elves and Sauron to get back the Elven Rings after the Elves took off their rings, but if he didnt know about the three how would he be angered from their taking them off, it doesnt add up unless its talking about the 16.

[JeffF.]

Though he did not ever touch them they were made with his assistance & knowledge of craft, this probably explains why he exerted less influence on the Three but as stated in LotR all they did with the rings would be laid bare to the Enemy.