When the Nazgûl lose their bodily form, what happens to their rings?

[Thinlómien]

Well the title says it all.

I was just faced with this question when modding my werewolf game... I mean really, if they lose their cloaks and horses and travel as bodiless spirits, what on earth happens to their rings? Do they become immaterial for the time being? Or do the Nazgûl after all move around without their rings on? Or is there some other solution? I'm puzzled, please help/educate me.

[Aganzir]

Umm I was under the impression the rings were with Sauron, who could command them from afar even when they weren't wearing them... Don't know where I've read that though.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Umm I was under the impression the rings were with Sauron, who could command them from afar even when they weren't wearing them... Don't know where I've read that though.

Well I was semi-under that impression too, but in a way it doesn't quite make sense. Because, how come they can be under the power of their rings if they're not wearing them and one could kind of expect the rings to be the things to sort of "keep them together"... weird.

[Inziladun]

I think I recall a quote from UT (don't have the book handy) that implies Sauron could be certain of their loyalty because they were enslaved by their rings, which he held. I think that was from the chapter The Hunt for the Ring.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think I recall a quote from UT (don't have the book handy) that implies Sauron could be certain of their loyalty because they were enslaved by their rings, which he held. I think that was from the chapter The Hunt for the Ring.

Now phrased that way, it sounds very familiar.

But hmm... I wonder if Tolkien came up with that explanation merely because the problem of the disappearing rings would otherwise be too difficult...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Now phrased that way, it sounds very familiar.

But hmm... I wonder if Tolkien came up with that explanation merely because the problem of the disappearing rings would otherwise be too difficult...

Indeed, it is there. And no idea about Tolkien's motives, but I know he is sort of ambiguous about that - Gandalf (or Elrond? Or somebody, simply) says "Nine the Nazgul keep". Which sounds as if they have them. I have heard attempts to sort of talk one out of it, but not that they sound very convincing (not even by their logic).

[Boromir88]

Sauron possessed the 9 rings, as some of the 7, as you correctly recall.

Unfinished Tales:

...mightiest servants, the Ring-wraiths, who had no will but his own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held

...were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which [Sauron] now himself held

And in LOTR:

...the Nine [Sauron] has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed

You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine

My thoughts as to why he had them, is what Tolkien wrote in Letter 246 (another place where I believe Tolkien mentions Sauron held the 9 rings). And that is Sauron had a way to control his Nazgul, even without the One Ring. In Letter 246, Tolkien sets up a hypothetical scenario about Frodo the "ring-lord" claiming the One Ring, in the Sammath Naur, but the Nazgul would still take Frodo from Mount Doom and bring him to Sauron. As it was their 9 rings that that Nazgul were enthralled to, not the One.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

In Letter 246, Tolkien sets up a hypothetical scenario about Frodo the "ring-lord" claiming the One Ring, in the Sammath Naur, but the Nazgul would still take Frodo from Mount Doom and bring him to Sauron. As it was their 9 rings that that Nazgul were enthralled to, not the One.

Yeah, that's what I heard as part of that argument I mention. However, there is still this "Nine the Nazgul keep" sentence from FotR, which just makes a bit of a mess in it, in my opinion.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Well I was semi-under that impression too, but in a way it doesn't quite make sense. Because, how come they can be under the power of their rings if they're not wearing them and one could kind of expect the rings to be the things to sort of "keep them together"... weird.

There has been a lot of discussing about that here some time ago (I don't know, about a year or more?), in one discussion where Yours Truly participated too (I don't recall the name of the discussion anymore, but perhaps one could look for it... anyway, it was probably not the only one concerning that topic), and I think the conclusion was - even though I did not quite like it - that the Rings indeed were with Sauron. Or, at least (and now that is the question) by the end of the Third Age. Of course, before the Nazgul-men became Ringwraith, they were wearing them, and eventually went to Sauron... if we relate it to your WW narration, I would presume that by that time apparently they were already in the service of Sauron, but seemingly were still corporeal. Hm, thinking of that, perhaps it won't be such a problem for an incorporeal RW to carry away one Ring of Power... perhaps such a strongly "magical" (used in lack for better terms, even though it is hardly appropriate to use that in terms of M-E) item would have been possible to "catch" even by a person who is in the Wraith-world only? Though, that won't make much of a sense. After all, what were RW? Normally, they were seemingly "corporeal" or "semi-corporeal" (clad, carrying swords...), and when they were "killed" (like by Bruinen or in your narration), they became "completely incorporeal" and couldn't really do anything until their master... well, in computer game terms, until they respawned

Okay, but as for the actual question, I basically said what I think - logically, it seems that when the Nazgul were searching for Baggins, Sauron had the Rings with himself. That would also point to the fact that WK, when killed, didn't have his Ring with him when he died on Pelennor, thus, no Éomer could just come and say "hey, look, what a nice Ring lying in this pile of clothes" (ah yes, I think that was in the discussion I mentioned too).

Though if you asked just for personal feelings, all logic aside, I always thought the Nazgul have their Rings with them, and they can feel each other this way, use some powers, are controlled by Sauron etc. Of course, that would face questions like the one you put in front of us.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Well the title says it all.

I was just faced with this question when modding my werewolf game... I mean really, if they lose their cloaks and horses and travel as bodiless spirits, what on earth happens to their rings? Do they become immaterial for the time being? Or do the Nazgûl after all move around without their rings on? Or is there some other solution? I'm puzzled, please help/educate me.

The problem is that Tolkien changed his conception of the nazgul bodies, right in the middle of writing LOTR, sometime during the first drafts of the Pelennor Battle.

Originally, Nazgul were shape-shifters, that could look like a hobbit (one looking like a hobbit came to Hobbiton – see in HOME 6 or 7), or shapeshift into monstrous birds- vultures. In the first drafts for the scene with Eowyn, she destroyed the Witch-King SIMPLY by cutting off the bird's head! (By the way, there the WK only lost his shape, much like he did at the Ford, and was present again at the Parley (instead of the Mouth) and then even talked with Frodo after the Ring was destroyed in the Cracks of Doom.

But then, Tolkien decided that shape-shifting was mostly restricted to incarnate Maiar, not for Nazgul. After that, he changed the draft for the Eowyn scene exactly as it is now.

But Tolkien didn't correct the "Fellowship” and the “Two Towers" accordingly. Not all of it, at least, some things he had missed. So Radagast's: "disguised as black riders", Gandalf's " the black robes are real robes that they wear to give shape to their nothingness when they have dealings with the living,” and all the issues with "losing shape" in Bruinen River are the reminders of the original conception.

The worst bug connected with the former shape-shifting concept still remains in TT (the White Rider):

Gandalf: “For he was a Nazgul, one of the Nine, who ride now upon winged steeds. […]But they have not yet been allowed to cross the River, and Saruman does not know of this new shape in which the Ringwraiths have been clad.

Just imagine a happy owner of a new car saying:
“Behold the new shape in which I have been clad”


Yet when Tolkien later returned to the Bruinen ford episode in the “Hunt for the Ring” manuscripts (RC), he made it perfectly clear that none of the nazgul had lost his shape: they lost only their cloaks and boots (not a big issue), and the Witch-King had no difficulty riding his horse unclothed all the way to Mordor:

Only the bodies of 8 horses were discovered; but also the raiment of the Captain. It is probable that the Captain took the one horse that remained (he may have had strength to withdraw it from the flood) and unclad, naked, invisible, rode as swift as he could back to Mordor. At swiftest he could not accomplish that (for his horse at least would need some food and rest, though he needed none) ere November had passed.[...] Help no doubt was sent out to the other Ringwraiths as they made their way back, and they were bidden to remain secret again. RC, p 262

[Student of War]

In my opinion the benefits of wearing the rings were "installed" just to get the bearers to use them. The sinister intentions of the rings is a separate power. Once slaves, the bearers would always be tied to the one ring and do its bidding even in death despite the location of the rings or who was bearing them. Sauron was also a slave to the one ring because as he made it he put more of himself in it than was left over. So each ring could have had its own mini story behind it but only the one ring was the stories focus.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Odd, isn't it, that Sauron can demand the Nine Rings back without the Ruling Ring? Seriously, it is a flaw in the plot. If Sauron has the ability to control the Nazgul without the aid of the Ring, then the Ring is unnecessary, isn't it? The Rings of the Elves proved more beneficial to the Free People than the One Ring to its master. If it weren't for mistakes by Sauron and his allies, the Dark Lord would have won the war without the Ring. Had it not been found, he certainly would have won a war of attrition.

I hate to sound heretical, but there is a disconnect there.

It is not a flaw. Sauron could have dominated Middle-earth even without his Ring; he was supposed to be in "rapport" with the power that he had invested in it. The Nazgul were his through and through, rings or none. Retrieving The One remained critical, however, for while it was not in his possession, he remained vulnerable. There were several individuals still in Middle-earth who might have been capable of usurping mastery of the Ring, and even an incomplete claim on the Ring (like Isildur's) would have been enough to greatly inconvenience him.

Sauron's actions suggest that he expected a gambit of this kind rather than the madness of destroying the Ring. Any victory he could have had before recovering The One could be undone by a powerful claimant, and the likelihood of such a claim would increase as his realm and power grew. Step one, the most essential step, was to obviate this potentiality, preferably while his enemies believed they still had some slim window of time.

Here's a little discussion of Ring-claiming.