hin or chin? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Vaine · 01-09-2009, 05:20 PM

I just noticed that CT refers to the Children of Hurin as Narn i hin Hurin in Silm and UT, but as Narn i chin Hurin in CoH. Do you think it was an unintentional typo? Or might there be several ways to write the word?

Legate of Amon Lanc · 01-09-2009, 05:33 PM

As far as I recall, I believe the idea was that it is supposed to be chin, only later Christopher (or the Prof himself already? I don't know) decided that it is better to write it as hin, because English speakers might pronounce "chin" indeed as "ch", like, as in "charm" (or "chin"

). While it is supposed to be more like the ch as in, umm, well, Khand

(If somebody can help with more information and with better examples, please do so

)

Vaine · 01-09-2009, 05:44 PM

So what you're saying is that hin is supposed to be pronounced as if there's a K in front of it? I never knew :|

I suppose this is why CT added the 'note on pronunciation' in CoH.

Beregond · 01-09-2009, 05:51 PM

Yes, that's right. I think the pronunciation is "Narn ee kheen Hoorin".

Legate of Amon Lanc · 01-09-2009, 06:10 PM

Hmph. Well, does anybody know what is ch pronounced in, let's say, Latin? Or if you know any other language where it is. Words that come from different languages, and having ch in them, are anyway pronounced differently in English... Like, chalcedone. It is not supposed to be really k. But quite close to it. Well, how do you pronounce for example Marach, anyway? That's what it is.

Beregond · 01-09-2009, 06:17 PM

It's not as simple as "Mare-ahk" with a hard K, is it? I picture the "ch" as having more (how can I explain?) character to it? I can hear it in my head but I can't pronounce it properly myself. I don't think it's a sound from English - more like German. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Well, the pronunciation guide in Children of Hurin says CH has the same value as Scottish loch or German buch.

Beregond · 01-09-2009, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Note that the title of the Narn is given as Narn i Hîn Húrin in the published Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales. This was an editorial decision by Christopher Tolkien which he later regretted, done only to prevent people from pronouncing Chîn like the English "chin".

This from Tolkien Gateway. Where they got this information I am not sure - I scanned The Children of Hurin itself without finding any passage by Christopher related to it. Maybe it's in a revised Silmarillion? However, it is probably true, what Tolkien Gateway says.

Beregond · 01-09-2009, 05:42 PM

Another site says:

Quote:

In LR:322, Christopher Tolkien confesses: "Narn i Chîn Húrin...is so spelt at all occurences, but was improperly changed by me to Narn i Hîn Húrin (because I did not want Chîn to be pronounced like Modern English chin.)

Does LR mean Lost Road?

01-09-2009, 05:20 PM	#1
Vaine Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Norway Posts: 65	hin or chin? I just noticed that CT refers to the Children of Hurin as Narn i hin Hurin in Silm and UT, but as Narn i chin Hurin in CoH. Do you think it was an unintentional typo? Or might there be several ways to write the word?

01-09-2009, 05:33 PM	#2
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	As far as I recall, I believe the idea was that it is supposed to be chin, only later Christopher (or the Prof himself already? I don't know) decided that it is better to write it as hin, because English speakers might pronounce "chin" indeed as "ch", like, as in "charm" (or "chin" ). While it is supposed to be more like the ch as in, umm, well, Khand (If somebody can help with more information and with better examples, please do so ) __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

01-09-2009, 05:44 PM	#3
Vaine Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Norway Posts: 65	So what you're saying is that hin is supposed to be pronounced as if there's a K in front of it? I never knew :\| I suppose this is why CT added the 'note on pronunciation' in CoH. Last edited by Vaine; 01-09-2009 at 05:52 PM.

01-09-2009, 05:51 PM	#4
Beregond Playful Ghoul Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,251	Yes, that's right. I think the pronunciation is "Narn ee kheen Hoorin". __________________ "Hope and memory shall live still in some hidden valley where the grass is green." Last edited by Beregond; 01-09-2009 at 06:20 PM.

01-09-2009, 06:10 PM	#5
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	Hmph. Well, does anybody know what is ch pronounced in, let's say, Latin? Or if you know any other language where it is. Words that come from different languages, and having ch in them, are anyway pronounced differently in English... Like, chalcedone. It is not supposed to be really k. But quite close to it. Well, how do you pronounce for example Marach, anyway? That's what it is. __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

01-09-2009, 06:17 PM	#6
Beregond Playful Ghoul Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,251	It's not as simple as "Mare-ahk" with a hard K, is it? I picture the "ch" as having more (how can I explain?) character to it? I can hear it in my head but I can't pronounce it properly myself. I don't think it's a sound from English - more like German. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Well, the pronunciation guide in Children of Hurin says CH has the same value as Scottish loch or German buch. __________________ "Hope and memory shall live still in some hidden valley where the grass is green." Last edited by Beregond; 01-09-2009 at 06:21 PM.