A Question Concerning Tengwar. - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

elwin starfyre · 12-23-2008, 12:38 AM

Are words separated as they are in English, or do they all flow together?

I know it's probably a stupid question, judging from the One Ring inscription, but since no generators that I have used combine the letters, I started to wonder...

Yeah.

mark12_30 · 12-23-2008, 08:40 AM

I suspect TOlkien would have answered that it depends on the culture using the tengwar.

It is an adaptable script, used for various languages. He comments (somehwere) on the frontspeice which has a funky abreeviation for "Of The", mushing it all into one word, almost one symbol. Adaptation.

SO I suspect that he would say, for english, sure, separate the words.

Are you asking if the words get separated in Sindarin and in Quenya? I think I might have known that once, but now it has faded into legend, and thence myth.

Beregond · 12-23-2008, 01:34 PM

Not a stupid question! Following what mark12_30 said (and keep in mind as you read this post that I'm no expert), I think it depends on your preference and what your application is. For instance, if you were going to write in Tengwar youself, using English language and Elvish script, I think it makes sense to space the words (after all, spaces are a part of English). Maybe the elvish language would be different - I know not.

From all I've read, the Tengwar alphabet is indeed extremely adaptable and it is very hard to pin down a precise "correct" usage. There are a myriad variants that were used at different times and places by different people; you cannot be entirely accurate whatever you do. Nor would you be inaccurate. My opinion, and please take it as such, is that at some point you have to develop your own style and method of Tengwar-translation.

I know I'm rambling on and getting away from your question. From what you said I'm guessing you're using online generators to translate your text - that's fine, but I highly recommend learning the Tengwar yourself. So much more fun! And unless you get into it deep it's not as difficult as it seems. I can't vouch for the accuracy of the information, but this is my favourite site for learning Tengwar: Amanye Tenceli, and since it's rather large and confusing, this is the page I recommend you start at, but do look around!

Ibrîniðilpathânezel · 12-23-2008, 03:06 PM

The two notable writings using the Tengwar letters that I can recall are the inscription on the Ring (in Black Speech) and "Namarie" which Tolkien (I believe) penned for his commentaries upon the text in the Donald Swann "The Road Goes Ever On" cycle (in Sindarin, I also believe). Both show distinct gaps between words. The Swann book is literally buried in my office at the moment, so I can't go look it up, but if I'm remembering right, a version of it Tolkien penned did not use the tehtar (vowel marks), but instead used other actual letters for the vowels. Either way, there are definitely spaces between the words. I'm pretty sure. Well...

elwin starfyre · 12-30-2008, 02:19 AM

i decided on the tattoo, it will say "rise above," however i have a question concerning a couple of the variants, firstly, would i use the trilled or untrilled version of "r?" my own opinion is the trilled version, as it is a "hard" r, i believe...but i'm not sure...secondly, the s...would i use the symbol for "s" or "z"? i read in the appendix that a good way to transcribe english using tengwar was phonetically, but when i say the word "rise" aloud, it seems like it could go either way.

i also am wondering if i would use a long carrier for the a in "above"...?
i looked at a generator and it didn't use a carrier, it just placed the tehta for "a" over the symbol for "b", and crowded in the "o" tehta as well, in my opinion it looked a bit messy.

Galin · 01-02-2009, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elwin starfyre

i decided on the tattoo, it will say "rise above," however i have a question concerning a couple of the variants, firstly, would i use the trilled or untrilled version of "r?"

I would use the character called rómen (the one that kind of looks like a y).

Quote:

secondly, the s...would i use the symbol for "s" or "z"? i read in the appendix that a good way to transcribe english using tengwar was phonetically, but when i say the word "rise" aloud, it seems like it could go either way.

I would use the character for z.

Quote:

i also am wondering if i would use a long carrier for the a in "above"...? i looked at a generator and it didn't use a carrier, it just placed the tehta for "a" over the symbol for "b", and crowded in the "o" tehta as well, in my opinion it looked a bit messy.

In my opinion you could use a circumflex instead of three dots (following the description in Return of the King). Or use a pen and paper and adjust the tehtar better.

You could also write English in a full mode as JRRT does in his English versions of the King's Letter. In this mode a = vilya (number 24 on the chart in the book). To see the rest of the English examples you might have to buy the book Sauron Defeated, or Vinyar Tengwar 29 which reproduces the second set of texts (and looks at usage in all six examples).

12-23-2008, 12:38 AM	#1
elwin starfyre Newly Deceased Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 4	A Question Concerning Tengwar. Are words separated as they are in English, or do they all flow together? I know it's probably a stupid question, judging from the One Ring inscription, but since no generators that I have used combine the letters, I started to wonder... Yeah.

12-23-2008, 08:40 AM	#2
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	I suspect TOlkien would have answered that it depends on the culture using the tengwar. It is an adaptable script, used for various languages. He comments (somehwere) on the frontspeice which has a funky abreeviation for "Of The", mushing it all into one word, almost one symbol. Adaptation. SO I suspect that he would say, for english, sure, separate the words. Are you asking if the words get separated in Sindarin and in Quenya? I think I might have known that once, but now it has faded into legend, and thence myth. __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

12-23-2008, 01:34 PM	#3
Beregond Playful Ghoul Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,251	Not a stupid question! Following what mark12_30 said (and keep in mind as you read this post that I'm no expert), I think it depends on your preference and what your application is. For instance, if you were going to write in Tengwar youself, using English language and Elvish script, I think it makes sense to space the words (after all, spaces are a part of English). Maybe the elvish language would be different - I know not. From all I've read, the Tengwar alphabet is indeed extremely adaptable and it is very hard to pin down a precise "correct" usage. There are a myriad variants that were used at different times and places by different people; you cannot be entirely accurate whatever you do. Nor would you be inaccurate. My opinion, and please take it as such, is that at some point you have to develop your own style and method of Tengwar-translation. I know I'm rambling on and getting away from your question. From what you said I'm guessing you're using online generators to translate your text - that's fine, but I highly recommend learning the Tengwar yourself. So much more fun! And unless you get into it deep it's not as difficult as it seems. I can't vouch for the accuracy of the information, but this is my favourite site for learning Tengwar: Amanye Tenceli, and since it's rather large and confusing, this is the page I recommend you start at, but do look around! __________________ "Hope and memory shall live still in some hidden valley where the grass is green."

12-23-2008, 03:06 PM	#4
Ibrîniðilpathânezel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Back on the Helcaraxe Posts: 733	The two notable writings using the Tengwar letters that I can recall are the inscription on the Ring (in Black Speech) and "Namarie" which Tolkien (I believe) penned for his commentaries upon the text in the Donald Swann "The Road Goes Ever On" cycle (in Sindarin, I also believe). Both show distinct gaps between words. The Swann book is literally buried in my office at the moment, so I can't go look it up, but if I'm remembering right, a version of it Tolkien penned did not use the tehtar (vowel marks), but instead used other actual letters for the vowels. Either way, there are definitely spaces between the words. I'm pretty sure. Well... __________________ Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. — John Stewart Mill

12-30-2008, 02:19 AM	#5
elwin starfyre Newly Deceased Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 4	i decided on the tattoo, it will say "rise above," however i have a question concerning a couple of the variants, firstly, would i use the trilled or untrilled version of "r?" my own opinion is the trilled version, as it is a "hard" r, i believe...but i'm not sure...secondly, the s...would i use the symbol for "s" or "z"? i read in the appendix that a good way to transcribe english using tengwar was phonetically, but when i say the word "rise" aloud, it seems like it could go either way. i also am wondering if i would use a long carrier for the a in "above"...? i looked at a generator and it didn't use a carrier, it just placed the tehta for "a" over the symbol for "b", and crowded in the "o" tehta as well, in my opinion it looked a bit messy.