Feigned fleeing or farciful forestalling?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Gandalf, during the Council of Elrond

Yet at last, as his shadow grew, Saruman yielded, and the Council put forth its strength and drove the evil out of Mirkwood - and that was the very year of the finding of this Ring: a strange chance, if chance it was.

But we were too late, as Elrond foresaw. Sauron also had watched us, and had long prepared against our stroke, governing Mordor from afar through Minas Morgul, where his Nine servants dwelt, until all was ready. Then he gave way before us, but only feigned to flee, and soon after came to the Dark Tower and openly declared himself.

Originally Posted by Gandalf, a little later in the monologue

But Saruman has long studied the arts of the Enemy himself, and thus we have often been able to forestall him. It was by the devices of Saruman that we drove him from Dol Guldur. It might be that he had found some weapons that would drive back the Nine.

The two quotes above, from The Fellowship of the Ring, show Gandalf presenting two different versions of what befell Sauron at Dol Guldur. In the first, the White Council makes to drive him out, but Sauron leaves of his own volition. Dol Guldur was just a temporary residence while Mordor was being made ready - and it was close to the Gladden Fields as well. In Gandalf's second comment, we have Saruman credited with some super weapon or stratagem that drives Sauron from Dol Guldur.

So which is it? Was Sauron flying or faking?

[skip spence]

I imagine that Sauron did put up a fight, although without the intention of winning. The White Council would feel more at ease perhaps having to fight a battle to oust the Necromancer than just seeing him slip out the back door. The devices of Saruman could've been the explosives that were used in Helms Deep by his army or other siege equipment, perhaps mechanical.

Myself I'm more curious about this phrase: "the Council put forth its strength and drove the evil out of Mirkwood" The White Council has an army at it's disposal? And how would this force be made up?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by alatar

So which is it? Was Sauron flying or faking?

I agree with what skip said here. Sauron has retreated, but of course first the Council would have needed to have enough power to drive him out in the first place. Otherwise, he would have just merrily remained in Dol Guldur. It was certainly not easy to drive him away from there, Gandalf says:

I alone of you have ever been in the dungeons of the Dark Lord, and only in his older and lesser dwelling in Dol Guldur.

which emphasises the power of Barad-Dur, but at the same time it shows that Dol Guldur, if we placed aside Barad Dur, would be still pretty remarkable. That means that Dol Guldur was at its time (and later, after being reoccupied, too - actually, "with power sevenfold", as Haldir [? I think] says) a mighty fortress and not just one tiny hut in the woods; it had its garrison and all sorts of defenses, no doubt. And you will find more quotes showing in one way or another how mighty it was (e.g. Haldir to Frodo on Cerin Amroth, the Appendices - about Galadriel and others, Gandalf's words to Thorin&co. etc.). So, as soon as it was decided to attack (or rather: as late as it was decided) the Council assembled as much strength as they could, and would attack Dol Guldur. Unfortunately for them, Sauron had already learned about that, so he had a back-up plan, that if they come and prove mightier than his forces (which they did), he could easily retreat to Mordor. Sounds logical, doesn't it? But, had it not been for the "devices of Saruman" (whatever it was - spells, machines, or just "plans"?), Sauron would have merrily remained in Dol Guldur (or possibly just moved to Mordor, but Dol Guldur will remain in his hands all the time, without any interruption).

So, I hope it is clear now. In short: Sauron was driven away, i.e. he had to leave Dol Guldur, was forced to do it. However, knowing beforehand about the attack, he prepared himself - of course he would not just disappear, that would have been indeed curious, and besides, there was always a chance that he would actually win the fight against the Council. Also, I doubt he knew "on 13th August at 5:30 AM they will attack", in fact, the Council did not know until very late that they will attack themselves! (It was decided very fast in place.) So, one day Sauron simply looked out of his window and saw the enemies rushing through the forest, and he thought "Ah, so it has come". Therefore, some battle needed to be fought. The other option would be to leave Dol Guldur empty, but when? He could leave on the 13th August at 5:30 AM and it will later be shown that the enemies planned to attack only five months later. Sauron preferred to stay in the place as long as he could, which makes perfect sense.

Originally Posted by skip spence

Myself I'm more curious about this phrase: "the Council put forth its strength and drove the evil out of Mirkwood" The White Council has an army at it's disposal? And how would this force be made up?

I have actually a long time ago started a thread touching this topic, I may as well link it to you, if you are interested in the matter: HERE.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I imagine that Sauron did put up a fight, although without the intention of winning. The White Council would feel more at ease perhaps having to fight a battle to oust the Necromancer than just seeing him slip out the back door. The devices of Saruman could've been the explosives that were used in Helms Deep by his army or other siege equipment, perhaps mechanical.

Myself I'm more curious about this phrase: "the Council put forth its strength and drove the evil out of Mirkwood" The White Council has an army at it's disposal? And how would this force be made up?

To me, it seems obvious that Saruman was already duplicitous, long forestalling the White Council's attack on Amon Lanc for his personal reasons. Perhaps the 'devices' Saruman used were just as feigned as was Sauron fleeing, and the two had already worked out an 'exit strategy' together. Both were in possession of the palantiri at the time.

As far as the phrase "the Council put forth its strength and drove the evil out of Mirkwood", I don't consider this to infer an army; rather, it seems to me more likely the White Council put forth their innate powers to drive Sauron forth, much like Galadriel did at the end of the War of the Ring when she laid bare the pits of Dol Guldur and toppled its tower.

[Rumil]

Hi All,

more speculation on the 'attack' on Dol Guldur here (and links within)-

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1511

From the texts I don't think there's enough evidence to say one way or the other whether a physical attack happened. However, I'm inclined to think that there were Elven troops deployed, together with Saruman's devices and some sort of 'magical' backup from the Wise.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

To me, it seems obvious that Saruman was already duplicitous, long forestalling the White Council's attack on Amon Lanc for his personal reasons. Perhaps the 'devices' Saruman used were just as feigned as was Sauron fleeing, and the two had already worked out an 'exit strategy' together. Both were in possession of the palantiri at the time.

No, please, this is nonsense. Saruman had no real connection to Sauron until the end of the millenium, when he dared to look into the Palantír. He did not look into it until then! And he did not, for Eru's sake, work together with Sauron! I may jump out of my skin when I hear things like that, sorry, but Saruman was a proud, independant traitor! And if you look just into the Tale of the Years, it will become clear to you. There is this date when Saruman looked into the Palantír, as mentioned above, and there is also the note, I believe, that Saruman's intentions to attack Dol Guldur were to prevent Sauron from searching on the Gladden Fields (before, he wanted to keep him there just for the same reason, in hope to find the Ring if it attempted to get back to its Master).

As far as the phrase "the Council put forth its strength and drove the evil out of Mirkwood", I don't consider this to infer an army; rather, it seems to me more likely the White Council put forth their innate powers to drive Sauron forth, much like Galadriel did at the end of the War of the Ring when she laid bare the pits of Dol Guldur and toppled its tower.

Well yes, but even the end of the War of the Ring involved battles with the Orcs and spiders and whatever was in Mirkwood by that time. So, I am not easy to dismiss the possibility of at least an elven commando being around there. I have to look at Rumil's link yet (thanks for it, by the way!), but at least I am certain in the discussion I linked to in my above post, there was something said about reasons for that.

[skip spence]

I agree with Legate and Rumil that The White Council would've sent troops to Dol Guldur, and not just sang the walls down. All this is speculation of course but I imagine the force would've consisting of mainly Galadriel's Silvan Elves, supported by Thranduil and perhaps Elrond too. Saruman might have sent men to fight too.

And Legate, now thinking about it I remember that thread, because I started a similar one myself (not knowing about the other) which was merged with yours.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I agree with Legate and Rumil that The White Council would've sent troops to Dol Guldur, and not just sang the walls down. All this is speculation of course but I imagine the force would've consisting of mainly Galadriel's Silvan Elves, supported by Thranduil and perhaps Elrond too. Saruman might have sent men to fight too.

Yes, that sounds plausible - at least if there was somebody, then the Silvan Elves from Lórien (not sure about Thranduil, don't forget that at the same time there has been trouble with the Dragon and Dwarves) and the others, possibly. Though I find the idea of Saruman's men being there absolutely fascinating - if it were to be so (and it is plausible he would have had at least a servant or two with him, if only for that one would carry his books and the other take care of the horses or something like that), just imagine the simple Isengarders being taken and sent into a far and alien land, what more, to fight alongside the Elves! Hm, okay, actually now thinking about it, it sounds a bit unlikely. After all, the times of Last Alliance were long gone and besides, the Men would have been really ill-suited to fight in such an environment like Mirkwood was, which they were not familiar with at all. But still, a nice idea to play with.

And Legate, now thinking about it I remember that thread, because I started a similar one myself (not knowing about the other) which was merged with yours.

Oh yes, actually, true, I recalled something like that. Interesting, it seems as if it were a really long time ago to me...

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

No, please, this is nonsense. Saruman had no real connection to Sauron until the end of the millenium, when he dared to look into the Palantír.

Nonsense? Nonsense! Unfactual perhaps, reaching maybe, but nonsense? Pfffttt! I offered a perfectly good conspiracy theory, and like any good conspiratorial illuminator I eschewed actually looking up silly little points as to who did what with whom and when or where, and glossed over anyone's actual intentions. It's not the facts that make good propaganda, its the juicy story! Geeze, Leggy, get with the program!

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

Feigned fleeing or farciful forestalling?

Foolishly fudging, with fantastical forewarning freakishly floundered.

*curtsies*

[The Might]

Speculating on the second quote speaking of "some weapons that would drive back the Nine" I'd actually rather think of his voice as a possibility as well:

Such was still the power of the voice of Saruman that even the Lord of the Nazgûl did not question what it said, whether it was false or short of the full truth; but straightway he rode from the Gate and began to hunt for Gandalf in Rohan.

Perhaps some types of mind-controlling devices or something like that and not necessarily the explosives seen at Helm's Deep. Just a thought of course...

[Morthoron]

Based on what I have perused thus far, I am unconvinced that there was some sort of standing army that drove Sauron from Dol Guldur. The absence of an actual siege and breaking of the towers (which did not occur until Galadriel returned there at the end of the War of the Ring), and Saruman being relied on to supply his devices, indicates (to me, anyway) that the White Council's singular mission was to force Sauron to flee, and not to invest or besiege Amon Lanc.

The questions remain, if the White Council did indeed have an invasion force, why did they not topple the topless towers and lay bare the pits of Dol Guldur, and thus cleanse that loathsome place? Why leave such a scar on the land that years later Legolas and his kin would find it nearly unbearable to pass it by? Why not destroy it then and there so that it could not be remanned (or re-orced perhaps) with evil creatures, as it was during the War of the Ring? Rule number one in warfare regarding capturing an enemy stronghold is to either repopulate it with your own forces, or destroy it so it cannot be used again.

To me, logic dictates that the White Council did not have a strong numerical force for investment.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I think perhaps that the use of the word "devices" should be considered. It doesn't necessarily mean a gadget or a weapon; it can mean a technique, means, or even a plan. As Saruman had most thoroughly studied the arts of the Enemy (possibly even having a sort of inside track on things because of their mutual origin as Maiar of Aule), the Council may have deferred to his wisdom in such matters and implemented his plan for a confrontation with "the Necromancer." It may or may not have included such things as his "blasting fire" (I tend to think that if it did, it was used minimally, since Dol Guldur does not appear to have suffered significant physical damage from the attack). If they came at Sauron with enough non-physical power to make him fear that they might actually succeed in overwhelming him and taking him prisoner, I doubt he'd have much compunction about deserting his minions and hieing himself back to the safety of his much greater stronghold in Mordor.

Just an early morning thought. Still haven't gotten to the books....

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

the White Council's singular mission was to force Sauron to flee, and not to invest or besiege Amon Lanc.

That's for the second time. Stop that! It scares me always when I see it in the text...

The questions remain, if the White Council did indeed have an invasion force, why did they not topple the topless towers and lay bare the pits of Dol Guldur, and thus cleanse that loathsome place? Why leave such a scar on the land that years later Legolas and his kin would find it nearly unbearable to pass it by? Why not destroy it then and there so that it could not be remanned (or re-orced perhaps) with evil creatures, as it was during the War of the Ring? Rule number one in warfare regarding capturing an enemy stronghold is to either repopulate it with your own forces, or destroy it so it cannot be used again.

Indeed, but these rules don't apply always in M-E, and I actually find it pretty Middle-Earthish to drive Sauron away and not to tear down the walls. It's a typical M-E mistake, something like that the Ring should have been destroyed after Sauron was killed, and so on. People in M-E very often make the mistake of getting rid of the "surface" problem, while not destroying the "roots". Thus, I find leaving Dol Guldur's fortress alone as a veeery classic mistake which later showed to be rather a problem.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

I think perhaps that the use of the word "devices" should be considered. It doesn't necessarily mean a gadget or a weapon; it can mean a technique, means, or even a plan.

Yes, that's exactly what I said in the post I linked above, too... the point about Dol Guldur not being actually destroyed would support a different means of driving Sauron away. However, it also does not rule out the blasting fire completely - as in Helm's Deep, they could have just blown up a bit of a wall to get inside (which was repaired later when Sauron re-occupied the place). But I find it unlikely also for the question how would the Elves look on such a "machine of terror" to be used.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Indeed, but these rules don't apply always in M-E, and I actually find it pretty Middle-Earthish to drive Sauron away and not to tear down the walls. It's a typical M-E mistake, something like that the Ring should have been destroyed after Sauron was killed, and so on. People in M-E very often make the mistake of getting rid of the "surface" problem, while not destroying the "roots". Thus, I find leaving Dol Guldur's fortress alone as a veeery classic mistake which later showed to be rather a problem.

Just *how* does Elrond maintain his Wise card? Wasn't he the one at the Council that whined about not unmaking Barad-dur and the Ring? Maybe he should address the Tower in his own back yard before talking about the one of Isildur's kin/ken. No wonder Boromir was so put out!

Yes, that's exactly what I said in the post I linked above, too... the point about Dol Guldur not being actually destroyed would support a different means of driving Sauron away. However, it also does not rule out the blasting fire completely - as in Helm's Deep, they could have just blown up a bit of a wall to get inside (which was repaired later when Sauron re-occupied the place). But I find it unlikely also for the question how would the Elves look on such a "machine of terror" to be used.

Can't be blasting fire, as it's not used again by the White. And one would think that Aragorn the Aged would have remembered/remarked how it was used to breach the walls of Dol Guldur when he sees it again at Helm's Deep.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

That's for the second time. Stop that! It scares me always when I see it in the text...

And yet, I've seen nothing you've offered thus far to refute it, save the same conjecture I am using; therefore, I have no inclination to 'stop it' (particularly since it irritates you so ). For instance....

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Indeed, but these rules don't apply always in M-E, and I actually find it pretty Middle-Earthish to drive Sauron away and not to tear down the walls. It's a typical M-E mistake, something like that the Ring should have been destroyed after Sauron was killed, and so on. People in M-E very often make the mistake of getting rid of the "surface" problem, while not destroying the "roots". Thus, I find leaving Dol Guldur's fortress alone as a veeery classic mistake which later showed to be rather a problem.

Hmmm...but why then did Galadriel deem it so important to throw down the towers of Dol Guldur after Sauron's demise? Likewise, Elessar had Minas Morgul utterly destroyed after Sauron and the WiKi were long gone. Why the necessity after the fact? The importance of such a demolition was just as crucial prior to Sauron's defeat, if not more so, don't you think?

Further back in M-e history, Utumno and Angband were both purposely destroyed in separate wars (not as systematically as one would like, of course, because Angband had to be reduced twice). But one would think a scholarly loremaster such as Elrond or a long-lived Noldo like Galadriel would insist on such destruction as a matter of course, based on previous experiences of their race, unless their primary concern was to drive Sauron off, as it would seem unlikely and naive if they believed he could actually be utterly destroyed, even with Saruman's shiny new devices. Therefore, it is evident to me the White Council did not have a legion of Elves storming the ramparts (the same mythical army that, of course, saved Helm's Deep).