Humility & Heroes

[Lalwendë]

I knew reading those conference papers would give me some thoughts....and here's just one....

One of the things which strikes me most about Tolkien's heroes and about his characters in general, is just how humble they are, in many ways (both literally in the case of say Sam, and in behaviour, in the case of Aragorn). This is in contrast to a lot of fantasy and action/adventure fiction and drama where we have quite proud heroes who seem elevated when they succeed, as opposed to Tolkien's heroes like Frodo who are only broken by succeeding.

In some ways, you could retitle all Tolkien's novels to be called Pride Comes Before A Fall, because this is one of the major themes which comes through.

Am I alone in finding Tolkien to take a very unusual view on heroism and humility?

And why might Tolkien have taken that line?

I can think of three possible reasons. Firstly, it echoes the English/British character in that we aren't terribly keen on boastful people - it's fine to celebrate a success but we certainly don't like those who treat it as an opportunity for special treatment. Secondly, it could be down to Tolkien's faith, where again, it is not acceptable to lord it over others and to remember that there is someone else who will always be mightier than you, no matter what great things you've done. And thirdly, humility might be so important as it is an echo of the Northern literary tradition which might on the surface seem to be about heroes but is filled with defeat and pessimism.

What do you think?

[The Might]

Well, I do think it is a general trend in Tolkien's works, indeed.
Looking through all the books you can find a general rule pretty soon - if yor are humble, you win, if you are proud or arrogant, you lose. Simple as that, and I cannot think of any exceptions from any book right now, maybe some of you more wiser ones could point something out.

However, I very much doubt that it is a special thing of Tolkien's... thinking back to my childhood and reading Romanian fairytales it was pretty much the same. Usually the hero's older brothers went first on the quest, but due to their pride and arrogance they always failed at some point. The youngest brother however, the main character, always remained humble, no matter in which situation and always saw himself as serving others and not others serving him and in the end was repaid and saved the day.

I do however agree the case of Frodo is indeed out of ordinary. Whilst all the others from the Fellowship (ok, except Boromir) get repaid in one way or the other and live a happy and fulfilling life like Romanian fairytale heroes, Frodo ends up with nothing - he can no longer live in M-e and is forced to leave.

Why I think this happend is this:
Tolkien used the normal fairytale "any victory against evil will only come at a loss, will require a certain sacrifice". And since just letting Boromir die would not be a dramatic enough scene to justify the motto above, he needed to show how the quest damaged Frodo too. It was his sacrifice that gave all others the possibility to continue living on, but it was too late for him.
I actually wonder if that is something special about LotR, but I doubt it. I must admit I don't read a lot of other books, so I don't really know , but maybe someone else can offer some other examples, I'm pretty sure there are some.

Ok, that's all, hope all that made sense, at least a little bit.
And btw, it's a pleasure to be posting on the BW forum again.

[davem]

Ronald Hutton, in one of the Conference papers, makes the point that 'humility', while 'completely alien to the spirit of pagan epic' is almost equally unknown in medieval Christian romance. Where it is to be found is in (as The Might points up) Folk & Fairy tale, & Hutton quotes Gandalf that is is part & parcel of 'stories about dragons & goblins & giants & the rescue of princesses & the unexpected luck of widow's sons'. Hutton points out:

You don't have to invoke theology to explain why the fictions of the common people tend to have underdog heroes

I think the answer is simple - the heroes of LotR are humble because LotR is a fairy story & that's what's expected of heroes in Fairy story - if they are to avoid the pitfalls & the dungeons that await the overbold.

As to the point about it being something in the English British character the point is made in an article in today's Times about Strictly Come Dancing

It underlined what makes Britain great. We have an in-built mistrust of people who think they are it.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle5201229.ece

[Rumil]

Hi Davem and Might,

Interesting stuff, I doubt the heroes of the sagas hid their light 'neath a bushel. A couple of thoughts...

Boromir versus Faramir- Boromir shades towards pride in inisiting on replacing Faramir on the journey to Rivendell, but manages to subordinate himself to Aragorn (at least while away from Gondor). I think this may have helped the ring gain control, utilising the bubbling pool of pride and perhaps jealously that maybe Boromir was trying to suppress.

Eomer you might describe as less humble in attitude than Faramir, but in away he is 'allowed' as he comes from a less developed culture, perhaps!

Just about 99% of First Age elves are closely descibed by 'Pride before a fall' indeed , in fact nearly all of Beleriand.

Remember Tolkien was a war veteran, few seem to want to talk much about their experiences, no matter how 'heroic' they may have been. According to one author the only way to get Brit WW2 heroes to talk about their experience was to ask them about their oppos, then ask the oppo about the first chap. I have a feeling that the majority of veterans thought that anyone 'going-on' about their service was slightly suspicious in some way?

[Lalwendë]

Tolkien's war experience is another interesting angle on this.

Interestingly, Tolkien and the other Inklings were proud of their war service, in the sense that they had 'done their duty', much as ex-servicemen (and women) are today, in that they have pride in having served but not pride in the 'killing' aspect of war. If I've expressed that correctly...? It's a hard thing to explain! I've also heard about how veterans find it difficult to talk about what they went through but to comrades they can talk for hours...

Boromir's an interesting case. I love reading about him on the journey down the Anduin - it's a perfect study of a man trying to keep his feelings in check as he tries to submit to Aragorn's leadership. He's a man who is full of pride of course and ends up deeply humble.

[davem]

Hobbits are clearly fairytale 'heroes' - hence their humility - but the world they stray into is the world of epic (both pagan - Illiad/Odyssey, Beowulf - & medieval Christian - Morte d'Arthur, Orlando Furioso, even the Fairie Queene). Frodo is, via his journey & his suffering, raised up to that level, but the other Hobbits retain their Fairy story nature. Hence, they can go home but he cannot.

Gandalf, Aragorn & Faramir are not humble in the same way, or to the same extent, as the Hobbits - because it is not 'natural' to them: their humility is not innate - they must consciously humble themselves, fight against the 'sin' of pride. This is the reason that they are in more danger from the Ring - the Hobbits have a natural 'immunity' (obviously not complete immunity, but greater than that of other races). The Ring is not of their world, of the world of folk & fairy story. It is of the high, epic world - again the reason Tom is immune to its power, because he too is of the world of folk & fairy tale. Only when Frodo has 'grown' sufficiently to 'migrate' to the higher, mythic world can he fall to the power of the Ring. At the Cracks of Doom Frodo has lost that innate Hobbit, folksy, humility & like Gandalf, Aragorn, Galadriel et al must choose to humble himself - which he fails to do. The other Hobbits don't commit the ultimate Sin as Frodo does, but then they never grow enough to be able to.