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11-18-2008, 02:38 AM | #1 | ||||
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Minas Morgul
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Nazgűl clothes: visible and invisible
I decided to open a separate thread to discuss the fascinating subject of nazgul clothing.
It has started in the Barrow-wights thread here: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=153 Quote:
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But beneath the cloaks the nazgul wore white and grey robes and helms of silver, visible only in the Spirit world. Frodo saw it twice: at Weathertop when he put on the Ring and at the Ford when his wound drew him into the Wraith-world: Quote:
I tend to think that much like the nazgul bodies, the clothes were material, but invisible. They could be touched. If the visible clothing consisted only of cloaks, boots and gloves, it would be reasonable for the nazgul to don something else as well – invisible but material – on their material bodies and not ride their horses practically naked. That is the drawback of the idea of immaterial, ghostly clothes. However, the idea of two sets of material clothing (visible and invisible) seems a bit weird – for practical reasons. It couldn’t have been the same clothes they had worn when fading - back in the Second Age. Like everything else in the world, the material clothes would decay during the millennia, and fall to nothingness. They would have to be replaced. Now a question arises: where do you shop for invisible clothing? Maybe when a nazgul wears something ordinary for some period of time, the garment gradually becomes invisible as well? That is how they could restock their invisible wardrobe. But it is somehow weird: to have garments displaying different degrees of transparency. Also, their long grey robes, seen by Frodo at Weathertop seem to be very unpractical for travel. Why not wear clothes more suitable for riding, if they could choose the invisible clothes? Why don a kingly crown while on secret mission? If one puts on a helm and then a crown and covers all this with the hood of his visible cloak, wasn’t the material crown’s shape still recognizable under the hood? This issue would not arise if it were but a nebulous crown, an illusion. Anyway, I find all this confusing. I can’t say I have a firm opinion on the matter. |
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11-18-2008, 03:16 AM | #2 |
shadow of a doubt
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Nice post, but I can't think I can think of anything very clever to say. You have certainly pointed out many inconsistencies, not easily explained away.
I think this is important to remember: one must never, I repeat, NEVER, touch a naked Nazgul.
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11-18-2008, 07:35 AM | #3 | ||
Cryptic Aura
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11-18-2008, 08:09 AM | #4 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Jun 2007
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I remember reading somewhere (probably in that hightly inaccurate A-Z of tolkein that the Nazgul's grey clothes were the "robes of the dead" and were analagous to shouds. Obviosly they couldn't be real shrouds since the Nazugul never tecnically died till the Third Age but since we don't really know how the fading works (do they live breath and eat all of thier lives or are they more like zombies, dead bodies still animated by thier spirits) I personally think the fact that the Nazgul kings body more or less evaported when he was slain seems to idicate the latter, that ultimately the faded bodies simply disinegrate and what you have left is dust held in the form of a man by the Nazgul's fea (what frodo saw with the ring in this case would have been the nazgul's fea visualized, which would of course look like the Nazgul did in life (in the same way that a ghost can resemble the person it is a ghost of) we dont really know how solid a Nazgul's body is, Merry is the only one who actually stabbed into won and he was too distacted to note whether it felt like he hit something solid inside, or just empty armor.)
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11-18-2008, 08:21 AM | #5 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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In regards to the Nazgul's black robes turning gray and white when Frodo saw them with the Ring on, I had always considered that Tolkien was merely using a metaphor for photography. Frodo is seeing the 'negative image' when he puts on the Ring, just as one would before a photo is processed; thus, we are seeing the 'anti-world' or the netherworld of shadows and mist that is the opposite of the 'real world'.
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11-18-2008, 11:26 AM | #6 | |
A Mere Boggart
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What I think Frodo is seeing is the 'real' Men behind the Ringwraiths and what they have become in their thousands of years of entrapment. Therefore the 'robes' and 'crowns' are literally shadows of the past which Frodo is able to see as he has entered that world by donning the Ring (the One Ring gives an instant access to this netherworld, whereas presumably you'd need to wear one of the seven rings for a while before you succumbed). What he 'sees' is not entirely real as note that he also sees his own sword flickering red, not blue. I don't think it would actually matter to a Ringwraith whether he wore 'clothes' under his black robes anyway, as would the chafe of horseriding literally bareback cause any discomfort to a Wraith? Trousers or the lack of them probably wouldn't bother your everyday Wraith.
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11-18-2008, 02:22 PM | #7 | |||||||||
Shade of Carn Dűm
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. I agree with Alfirin that the nazgul white and grey garments "obviously couldn't be real shrouds since the Nazugul never tecnically died till the Third Age". Quote:
1.Nazgul didn't need to eat and rest: Quote:
3. Yet, not needing air, the nazgul could and did breathe. Quote:
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So, I believe, on Weathertop Frodo saw not " the Nazgul's fea visualised" but their hroar, that now belonged to the Shadow World. And their hroar were the very ones the nazgul had been born with, only they gradually became invisible, faded. For Men fading is an alien phenomenon, but for Elves it is an ordinary thing to happen if they stay too long in Middle Earth. Faded Elves, called "the Lingerers" are described in the "Laws and Customs among the Eldar" in Morgoth's Ring (Home X). Quote:
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"Invisible" is not the same as "insubstantial". Imagine one walks by night, hits an invisible tree and finds it painfully substantial. Ordinary Men simply don't see at night, neither do they see in the World of Shadow - but that doesn't prevent them from hitting something invisible for them and getting hurt. Last edited by Gordis; 11-18-2008 at 02:41 PM. |
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11-18-2008, 04:26 PM | #8 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 435
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Oh, okay, my mind must be getting rusty.
as for the point of this article here are a few addional thoughts While, Nazgul may be able to change thier inner robes, I doubt they do, or at least do often. Since breathing seems optional (and as suggested earlier food is likey optional too) I imagine that in general Nagul do not sweat much if at all (likewise they probably do engage in any other bodily activities) so thier robes likey stay wearable far longer than they would on an ordinary man.) None the less the robes are likely chaged from time to time, since unless the bodily preservation powers provided by the ring also extend to them the clothes would evetually rot away and crumble (I know fabric can last ceturies from time to time, but this usally only happen when it is kept in special circumstances (perpetually in low moisture, or pickled in peat juice. anything a wraith would be wearing would be subject to the full range of enviorments and would likey rot as fast as any other clothes. Also there are no doubt times when it is advatageos to wear other clothing besides the cloaks. Certainly the Warith who called on Gloin (assuming it was a wraith, opion here seems to be divided) would likey have dressed as befits an ambassador; he was trying to get on Gloin's good side, and keeping his dusty traveling cloak on in his audience might have been misenterpreted as an insult (though he likely wore a wide hat to keep his face (or in this case, lack of face) in shadow (unless wraith magic incudes a spell to temporarily put the image of a body onto thier form) Also one minor correction. Just as we have esabished that a Nazgul without his cloak is not in a tecnical sense, naked, I would maintain that one wothut the black riding boots is not, technically bootless. The Naxguls wore robes in thier "invisible form", they likey wore boots as well (or maybe slippers of the kind worn by the well to do indoors in the middle ages (more like leather socks in construction); the boots we see were likely worn over these. Just as riding a horse would be uncofotable naked, this would also apply to riding one barefoot. Finallu one last question. We know that as the Witch king of Angmar the lord of the Nagul wore a crown of iron which hwas visible even in the real world. my question is twofold 1. is the crown seen on the WK in the ring world the same crown or an earlier crown (I seem to remember something about that crown being silver or gold) and 2. might some of the other nazgul have worn crowns as well. The WK wore a crown becuse he was king of angmar not because he was lord of the Nazgul. While not kings I seem to recall that several of the other Nazgul were, in thier lives fairly high up individuals, princes, lords and other nobles, all well in thier rights to wear crowns and coronets of one sort or another (come to think of it wasn't Khamul a king amoung the Easterlings) |
11-18-2008, 04:54 PM | #9 | |
A Mere Boggart
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A Ringwraith has not resisted any 'call' on his fea, but has succumbed to the temptation offered by living a seemingly endless life, something forbidden to him. He has undergone what must have been a long and drawn out process in which his hroa has withered and to all intents and purposes is not a lot different to the houseless fea of an Elf, though we could say it's a lot worse as it is at least possible for an Elf to exist without a hroa (though it leaves him vulnerable to evil), whereas Men are not created that way.
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