Elrond's big mistake?

[Samwise Gamgee]

I was just wondering if anyone else thought of this - Elrond tells frodo when he is at rivendell to look for Bilbo the next year in the fall, right?

Well by my calculations(and I did doublecheck them with the Appendices) It had to be two years till Frodo left. But Bilbo was already packing two years earlier.

Well, I guess the amount of time Bilbo spent sleeping would explain the premature packing - but what about the wise Elrond's little slip?

[Elentári]

Interesting, I must say. I never noticed that...and I don't think many others will have either. Does it say next fall in your book???? Or next autumn?

[Samwise Gamgee]

actually it says something like "when the leaves are gold, at this time of the year"
I was just talking about the point of the sentence - not exact wording

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

well, actually Elrond doesn't say anything like "next year". the words of Elrond are some kind of invitation and reminder that Frodo is welcome to travel to Valinor with them (sure he knew that Arwen had given 'her place' to Frodo) and the words just told that the leaving will be after summer when everybody is ready to leave. they had maybe agreed about the leaving date later but they wanted to leave in the fall(was Cirdan bilding a ship for them, or something...)
i just can't see any contradiction here.

[HerenIstarion]

Elrond

I think, Frodo, that maybe you will not need to come back, unless you come very soon. For about this time of the year, when the leaves are gold before they fall, look for Bilbo in the woods of the Shire. I shall be with him.

there is no mention of concrete date, as dancing spawn of ungoliant rightly observed, but I do not think there was special agreement between Frodo and Rivendell dwellers afterwards. Being Ring-Bearer and keen sighted after his journeys, he (I beleive) just felt when the time to leave was come

As for packing mentioned, it did no concern Bilbo's journey to Valinor, but to Aragorn's wedding in spring 1419 S.R.

Bilbo

I was invited to the wedding of course,’ he said. ‘And I have waited for it long enough. But somehow, when it came to it, I found I had so much to do here; and packing is such a bother.’

[ July 09, 2003: Message edited by: HerenIstarion ]

[Balin999]

sure he knew that Arwen had given 'her place' to Frodo

Who says that? That doesn't make any sense. Frodo was a ringbearer, he had a place reserved anyway. Bilbo was one, too. I don't think that Arwen gave her place to Frodo.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

in RotK, chapter 6 Arwen says that she gives to Frodo a gift. She is Elrond's daughter but she isn't going to Valinor 'cause she has made same choice as Lúthien.(and here it comes..)Arwen says that Frodo can go in place of her if he wants to.

[HerenIstarion]

my noble part in this thread is to provide the quotes, seemingly [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

A gift I will give you. For I am the daughter of Elrond. I shall not go with him now when he departs to the Havens; for mine is the choice of Lúthien, and as she so have I chosen, both the sweet and the bitter. But in my stead you shall go, Ring-bearer, when the time comes, and if you then desire it. If your hurts grieve you still and the memory of your burden is heavy, then you may pass into the West, until all your wounds and weariness are healed. But wear this now in memory of Elfstone and Evenstar with whom your life has been woven

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

yep [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
i couldn't quote that myself since i don't have LotR in english...thank you, HerenIstarion!

[lathspell]

Hello my good people!

I think this quote can be read otherwise. From what I thought after reading LotR the gift to Frodo is the white medaillion she gave him for great pains. I remember him wearing it when he was ill in April and in October, clutching it with his hand. If it had any powers against his illness I don't know and that would be rash to conclude.

The reason he was going to Valinor was because of him being a Ring-bearer. Otherwise I can't see why Bilbo and Sam were permitted to go as well, for I don't know anybody else who made the same choice as Arwen in that time, so no one should be able to give their places to them.

It's another thought on the subject, but that's what discussing is about, ain't it? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

greetings,
lathspell

[The X Phial]

*waves at lathy*

Though I doubt she was required to give her place to Frodo in order for him to go, she was allowed to do so, and did out of generosity. Gifts sometimes carry more grace than earned rights, and him going in her stead would be symbolic, and no more.

[HerenIstarion]

Otherwise I can't see why Bilbo and Sam were permitted to go as well, for I don't know anybody else who made the same choice as Arwen in that time, so no one should be able to give their places to them.

I do believe that such gifts are not measured in numbers, meaning there is no necessity to exchange places one to one, so Arwen's one ticket would be exchanged for two tickets for Frodo and Bilbo. Anyways permission of the Valar was to be obtained, but that does not eliminate symbolism and meaning of Arwen's gift. For Valar like ceremonies and rituals as far as I can guess, so willing 'middlewomanhood' (if I am permitted to coin such a word) of Arwen's was as a necessary starting point to grant Ring-Bearers' desire to pass into the West

cf how Gimli (supposedly, for it is not stated directly) goes to Aman:

We have heard tell that Legolas took Gimli Glóin's son with him because of their great friendship, greater than any that has been between Elf and Dwarf. If this is true, then it is strange indeed: that a Dwarf should be willing to leave Middle-earth for any love, or that the Eldar should receive him, or that the Lords of the West should permit it. But it is said that Gimli went also out of desire to see again the beauty of Galadriel; and it may be that she, being mighty among the Eldar, obtained this grace for him. More cannot be said of this matter

Three mandatory requirements - Eldar should be willing to receive a mortal, Valar should permit it, and some intermediary of 'political weight and power" should obtain such a permit

I reckon same principle is at work with Bilbo and Frodo, and grace, though deserved, is obtained via Arwen's parting gift


cf also:

"I take it as a wergild for my father and brother" of Isildur's. Some ground for claim is always needed, and Bearers claim to pass into the West is thus supported by Arwen's gift, as was said above already.

As for Sam, there is also no direct statement of his leaving ME:

1482 Death of Mistress Rose, wife of Master Samwise, on Mid-year's Day. On September 22 Master Sam-wise rides out from Bag End. He comes to the Tower Hills, and is last seen by Elanor, to whom he gives the Red Book afterwards kept by the Fairbairns. Among them the tradition is handed down from Elanor that Samwise passed the Towers, and went to the Grey Havens. and passed over Sea, last of the Ring-bearers.

Mere tradition of Fairbairns, no more (though mo less)

[Finwe]

Perhaps what ultimately happened to Sam was that he made his way to the edge of the Sea, and died there, looking out across the great distance that separated him and his Master Frodo. It never says that he sailed West, but if he had died at the edge of the Sea, then the Fairbairns could have assumed that he sailed West. It's quite sad really. I can imagine Sam's body carried off by the waves, and ultimately washing up on the shores of Aman at Frodo's feet. In death, he was finally reunited with his beloved Frodo. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

I think that in the Letters (I don't remember in which one) Tolkien says that Sam went to the Undying Lands.
In this case, I think that the gift of Arwen, as HerenIstarion has pointed out, could have been extended not only to Bilbo but to all Ring-bearers, and that would include Sam [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[peony_foxburr]

Frodo also assumed that Sam might some day pass over the Sea to the Undying Lands:
--------------------------------------------

"Where are you going, Master?" cried Sam, though at last he understood what was happening.

"To the Havens, Sam," said Frodo.

"And I can't come."

"No, Sam. Not yet, anyway, not further than the Havens. Though you too were a Ring-bearer, if only for a little while. Your time may come."
--------------------------------------------
I think that the preponderance of the evidence is that Sam did eventually go to the Undying Lands. I've speculated to myself that, to Frodo, time would barely seem to pass before he was re-united with Sam; and that once he was there, a very old man, there would be little reason for them to linger, and so they would pass on together to wherever Rosie awaited them. But that's a topic for another thread...

[HerenIstarion]

I will go on providing you with quotes [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

But the promise made to the Eldar (the High Elves – not to other varieties, they had long before made their irrevocable choice, preferring Middle-earth to paradise) for their sufferings in the struggle with the prime Dark Lord had still to be fulfilled: that they should always be able to leave Middle-earth, if they wished, and pass over Sea to the True West, by the Straight Road, and so come to Eressëa – but so pass out of time and history, never to return. The Half-elven, such as Elrond and Arwen, can choose to which kind and fate they shall belong: choose once and for all. Hence the grief at the parting of Elrond and Arwen.
But in this story it is supposed that there may be certain rare exceptions or accommodations (legitimately supposed? there always seem to be exceptions); and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel

from the letter to Naomi Mitchinson (L154 25 September 1954)

italics mine

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Thank you for the quote HerenIstarion [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I did a quick search but I couldn't find the letter [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

From the quote, it seems clear that the gift of Arwen was only given to Frodo, and not to the rest of the Ring-bearers (although I liked that theory [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] ).

As you pointed out before:

some intermediary of 'political weight and power" should obtain such a permit

Then the question is: who was the intermediary for Bilbo and Sam? Maybe Elrond? Or Gandalf?

[Finwe]

I think Gandalf was their intermediary. Also, they gave their lives for the Quest. Although it doens't seem like that, Bilbo did great things, things that he wasn't compelled to do. He could have just sat at home and refused to go on the expedition with the Dwarves. Sam could have sat at home and not gone with Frodo. After all, Rosie, his beloved, was at home, why did he leave her? He knew that there was a possiblity of failure for the Quest. He knew that he might die. But he still went. That selflessness was rewarded by permission to sail West.