These Three Things I Lost: 80 Years, my Desire and One Ring

[alatar]

Reading The Fellowship of the Ring for the thousandth time (as it's Fall, and eventually I would like to participate in the hundreth reread), I noticed something of a lapse in two of the main characters. Here's what jumped off the pages in this reread:

Bilbo finds the One Ring in 2941. Gollum goes in search for Bilbo in 2944. Gollum is released from Mordor 3017, goes in search of Bilbo. In 3018, Frodo takes the Ring eastward. The Nine are sent westward to find Baggins and Shire about the same time. Regardless of the exact dates, Gandalf, when speaking with Frodo in the Shire in The Shadow of the Past, says that Gollum leaves the Misty Mountains a year or two after Bilbo flees, and goes onto Dale to see what he could find out about that thieving Hobbit. He then turns westward and begins to head towards the Shire, stopping at the Anduin. He would have ended up at Bag End, but the call of Sauron proved greater than his lust for the Ring, and so he turns south, to spy on and lurk around Mordor. Eventually he is caught, and then Gollum is tortured. Given a new mission, though not broken, he is sent to continue his goal of finding Bilbo, and he makes it as far as Moria, which is where the Ring finds him.

So what's up with Gollum and Sauron? Just what were they doing for the 70-80 years from the time Bilbo finds the Ring until the time Frodo decided to finally get lost? Sure, I've killed some time now and then (thank you Internet!), but this is some professional slackerism.

Or was it simply filler? Did Tolkien need time to bring up Frodo, and to move Sauron the Sorcerer south, and so really didn't think out the time that these two, Gollum and Sauron, spend? Gollum's supposedly lusting for the Ring, yet can't find the Shire, and Sauron learns of the One, Bilbo and Shire and - let's be generous - and still takes 20 years to get his messenger calling on the mat of Bagshot Row.

And yet, in a year, members of the Fellowship circumnavigate the better parts of Middle Earth. What's going on?

[CSteefel]

Not quite sure what you mean with all your dates. Gollum was captured by Sauron in the period 3009-3017 and was released in 3017. On his way back, he was captured in turn by Aragorn, who delivered him to the Elves. So he had no time after his capture by Sauron to do anything.

Earlier it is stated in The Tale of Years that Gollum made his way to the confines of Mordor about 2980 where he made the acquaintance of Shelob, but there is no mention of capture at this point. So it did take him 36 years to make it to Mordor, and even 4 years to make it out of the Misty Mountains. And then after his first visit to Mordor in 2980, another 30 at least to make it back there, presumably called or drawn by Sauron.

Given his aversion to Sauron and also the Nazgul, it isn't entirely clear why Gollum would have gone to Mordor, unless drawn by the idea that the Ring was there.

Also, it is stated in The Hunt for the Ring in the Unfinished Tales that it was 3017 when Gollum was captured by Sauron, so Sauron knew nothing of this before then. And it is stated that Gollum led Sauron to believe that he thought that the Halflings lived somewhere near the Gladden Fields and initially the Nazgul were sent to search in this region. Only after they returned, close to midsummer, were they sent to question Saruman. From Saruman and Wormtongue they found out the location of the Shire.

[alatar]

alatar bows low to CSteefel, as he thought that this thread would remain unposted...

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Not quite sure what you mean with all your dates. Gollum was captured by Sauron in the period 3009-3017 and was released in 3017. On his way back, he was captured in turn by Aragorn, who delivered him to the Elves. So he had no time after his capture by Sauron to do anything.

Sorry about all of the numbers. Let's just take two - 2941 and 3018. That, if I do my math right, is 77 years. Gollum's ring-lust is supposedly at addict level. And yet he never gets to Hobbiton in all of those years?

By the way, I forgot to factor in Aragorn's capture of Gollum, and the elves imprisonment of the same. This, to me, only adds to the confusion, as Gollum escapes from the elves in 3018 (methinks) and yet heads eastward when the Ring was in the West?

Earlier it is stated in The Tale of Years that Gollum made his way to the confines of Mordor about 2980 where he made the acquaintance of Shelob, but there is no mention of capture at this point. So it did take him 36 years to make it to Mordor, and even 4 years to make it out of the Misty Mountains. And then after his first visit to Mordor in 2980, another 30 at least to make it back there, presumably called or drawn by Sauron.

Conceding to your timeline, that makes Gollum one of the slowest movers in Middle Earth - and yet we are to believe that he is fanatical regarding the Ring, his precious.

Given his aversion to Sauron and also the Nazgul, it isn't entirely clear why Gollum would have gone to Mordor, unless drawn by the idea that the Ring was there.

Gandalf states that, as a Ringbearer, Gollum was 'open to the call,' which drew him to Sauron. On the other side, the 'call' must have been more like a weak suggestion, as Gollum takes his good ole time getting to Mordor. As an aside, one pities the poor Balrog of Moria, who obviously spent many a tearful nights sitting by the phone, waiting for it to ring.

"Why doesn't he call?"

Also, it is stated in The Hunt for the Ring in the Unfinished Tales that it was 3017 when Gollum was captured by Sauron, so Sauron knew nothing of this before then. And it is stated that Gollum led Sauron to believe that he thought that the Halflings lived somewhere near the Gladden Fields and initially the Nazgul were sent to search in this region. Only after they returned, close to midsummer, were they sent to question Saruman. From Saruman and Wormtongue they found out the location of the Shire.

Don't know for sure. Something doesn't sit right - but maybe it's me. Wasn't the reason that Saruman unleashed the White Council on Dol Guldur, unless Sauron was getting too close to the Gladden Fields due to information regarding Isildur via Ohtar and not Gollum (which makes more sense)? But still...

Anyway, Gollum is at sometime captured and tortured by Sauron, then captured and pampered by Aragorn and the elves, and then escapes, and all of this has to happen within a year, if we assume that Gollum was initially captured in 3017.

So Sauron's off the hook.

Thanks for posting.

[CSteefel]

I agree that Gollum took his own sweet (or bitter?) time getting to Mordor, but I imagine this is a case a bit like the Taming of Smeagol, but with that extra element of fear instilled by Sauron, that Gollum really does not want to go there and resists as a result, but he is drawn inexorably there in the end. The competing wills there may explain the long time frames...

But the text says he makes two separate visits to Mordor and is released in 3017. He is captured by Aragorn, turned over to the Elves, then escapes and heads westward (not eastward), trying to cross through the Misty Mountains via Moria. Once there, he finds himself trapped (this is discussed in The Hunt for the Ring as well).

Apparently Tolkien felt there were some inconsistencies as well, which is why he mentions that Gollum really does not even know where the Shire is when he discusses this topic in The Hunt for the Ring.

[Boromir88]

Anyway, Gollum is at sometime captured and tortured by Sauron, then captured and pampered by Aragorn and the elves~alatar

Well pampered by the Elves perhaps, but Aragorn admits to being far less kind in his treatment of Gollum:

"He will never love me, I fear; for he bit me, and I was not gentle. Nothing more did I ever get from his mouth than the marks of his teeth."~The Council of Elrond

Anyway, as to the question of what was Gollum doing for those 70+ years. Hmm, interesting question, but afterall he was Frodo's guide through Mordor, so maybe he spent those years getting himself continuously lost?

[alatar]

Aragorn may not have been gentle, but he doesn't seem the bully like Faramir's men in Peter Jackson's version. Think that the quote you provide is followed by something like, "I tamed him through withholding water and food." Be good, get a treat; be bad and get no fish to eat or something.

I like what CSteefel suggests (maybe) that Gollum was caught between two forces - his lust for the One Ring and the call from that other ring, Sauron. Or maybe Gollum employed what in mathematics is called a random walk. Gollum eventually arrives at Mordor, but on the way has pretty much tread every possible path getting there, which later proves very useful to Frodo, especially in the Dead Marshes.

[Boromir88]

I went back and read Gandalf's story to Frodo regarding Gollum, and I think it's reasonable to say there are several reasons behind the length of the time frame, either that or Gandalf had no idea and was just making stuff up.

As CSteefel points out, I don't know if Gollum vacillated between Sauron's calling, and the Ring, but Gandalf certainly believed there was internal conflict and the Ring hadn't wholly ruined Gollum:

"Only too true, I fear," said Gandalf. "But there was something else in it, I think, which you don't see yet. Even Gollum was not wholly ruined...There was a little corner of his mind that was still his own, and light came through it, as through a chink in the dark: light out of the past. It was actually pleasant, I think to hear a kindly voice again, bringing up memories of wind, and trees, and sun on the grass, and such forgotten things."

Now Gandalf goes on to say that this only fueled Gollum's anger, and Gollum being "cured" was near impossible (though not beyond hope). But to go back to something alatar pointed out, was Gollum so strongly "addicted" to the Ring?

"...For it was long since he had worn it much: in the black darkness it was seldom needed. Certainly he had never "faded". He is thin and tough still. But the thing was eating up his mind, of course, and the torment become almost unbearable."
"...He was altogether wretched. He hated the dark, and he hated light more: he hated everything ahd the Ring most of all."

So, there certainly is the internal conflict, the calling of the Ring after Gollum loses it, and his attempts to resist, until it became unbearable and he left the mountains.

Also, I imagine Gollum's trek was very slow:

"Light, light of Sun and Moon, he still feard and hated, and he always will, I think; but he was cunning. He found he could hid from daylight and moonshine, and make his way swiftly and softly by dead of night with his pale cold eye...He found his way into Mirkwood, as one would expect."

Even though if he could move "swiftly" if he's only moving around the dead of night, to avoid both the sun and moon, he can't be spending too many hours "on the move." Plus, his physical condition, and while he did start gaining more strength as he was able to catch more food, he left the mountains "mortally hungry."

One more possibly interesting thing to point out about Gollum's character, is his curious nature; or need to "uncover" secrets:

"All the "great secrets" under the mountains had turned out to be just empty night: there was nothing more to find out, nothing worth doing, only nasty furtive eating and resentful remembering."

So, alatar, maybe your random walk makes sense for Gollum's character? Or his need to search through all the niches and secret passages in the unchartered Mordor? The Dead Marshes? Thus explaining his vast knowledge of the area (his vast knowledge of any area he's spent time in...as Gandalf says he was able to avoid capture by the Elves while in Mirkwood) and giving Gollum something else to do besides thinking about getting the Ring.

[CSteefel]

Still as pointed out, it took Gollum from 2944 to 2980 to make his first visit to Shelob and Mordor, so that is some slow going--36 years. So in this regard, I think alatar's suggestion of a random walk makes sense, with Sauron exerting a pull on Gollum that eventually influenced where he ended up.

Only other discrepancy I see is that Sauron supposedly captured Gollum in 3017, but in 3018 the Orcs at Cirith Ungol say that he made his way through "some years ago...". So either they were being inexact (actually referring to the previous year), or Gollum was captured on one of his earlier visits (but this does not seem to be supported by the statements in The Tale of Years or in The Hunt for the Ring).

[CSteefel]

The other perhaps minor point is that Gollum says he was captured on the "cold hard roads" to the East of the Dead Marshes. But one would think that once he learned the passage of the Dead Marshes, he would have only used that path to and from Mordor (as he did when he left Mordor in 3017). In other words, the use of those cold hard roads would have been more likely to be an early mistake, which again implies that perhaps Gollum was captured on one of his earlier visits.

Arguing most strongly against this is the material in The Hunt for the Ring (which agrees with the accounts from The Council of Elrond) that Sauron learned what Gollum knew only in 3017.

[Juicy-Sweet]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Still as pointed out, it took Gollum from 2944 to 2980 to make his first visit to Shelob and Mordor, so that is some slow going--36 years. So in this regard, I think alatar's suggestion of a random walk makes sense, with Sauron exerting a pull on Gollum that eventually influenced where he ended up.

Only other discrepancy I see is that Sauron supposedly captured Gollum in 3017, but in 3018 the Orcs at Cirith Ungol say that he made his way through "some years ago...". So either they were being inexact (actually referring to the previous year), or Gollum was captured on one of his earlier visits (but this does not seem to be supported by the statements in The Tale of Years or in The Hunt for the Ring).

Love this thread!

I also find it implausible that he spend 36 years trekking south. It should have taken him a year max. So he must have done something else. What would that be?

Looking at Gollum's character, he DOES actually have some interests apart from the ring.

1: He is a CURIOUS fellow, he likes learning new things. And he is willing to expose himself to danger just for fun. When he meets Bilbo, he reveals himsels out of curiosity. If he had just stayed inert, Bilbo would have just passed by. He agrees on the riddle game for much the same reason. He's also mentions having reached out for the dead people in the Dead Marshes. Sam thinks he wants to eat them - I think more he did it just for the heck of it.

2: He is especially interested in secrets nobody else knows and caves. That's part of his nature wanting to get preciousss stuff and keep it to himself.

3: He also does like making clever plans and executing them - he takes pleasure from being clever and his skills. We tricksed them yesss. They thought Smeagol was stupid but he tricksed them alll. Clever Smeagol!

king? Sneaking? Fat Hobbit is always so polite. Smeagol shows them secret ways that nobody else could find, and they say "sneak!" Sneak? Very nice friend. Oh, yes, my precious. Very nice, very nice.

4: He enjoys food - especially fish, but probably also other things. He does seem genuinely happy while consuming a fish, and not bothering about the ring at all at that moment.

Originally Posted by The Passage of the Marshes, TTT

- See, my precious: if we has it, then we can escape, even from Him, eh? Perhaps we grows very strong, stronger than Wraiths. Lord Smeagol? Gollum the Great? _The_ Gollum! Eat fish every day, three times a day; fresh from the sea. Most Precious Gollum! Must have it. We wants it, we wants it, we wants it!

I guess this means he has been to the sea - and that he probably trekked down there to try sea-fish, instead of the fish from lakes and rivers. The South Gondor coast is the closes to Moria.

5: He seems to me to have a great deal of knowledge about many things. For instance, he has seen Lembas before and recognizes it as well. (Dunno if they tried feeding him that while he was a prisoner of Thranduil? )He also knows Southeners and Ring Wraiths. He seems to recognize pretty much anything they come across while he travels with the Hobbits and knows what to do.

From these observations, I think he spent the 36 years just exploring around Mordor for fun, maybe further south as well. Trying to find **really** secret places to make him feel good + maybe looking for the perfect fish.

The reason he didnt tgo straight for the ring. Well - "ring urge" seems to be constantly felt, but controllable. Sauron himself managed to think about other things and not just go bananas about his ring. Bilbo didnt feel "ring urge" while being in Rivendell - then suddenly relapsed.

So the urge to go to Mordor migh have cancelled the calling of the ring out a bit. And pherhaps he thought that after 500 years in a small cave, he needed to brush up on his knowledge of the ways of the world to be effective in finding the ring.

As well, I think he just enjoyed having something new to do.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by alatar

So what's up with Gollum and Sauron? Just what were they doing for the 70-80 years from the time Bilbo finds the Ring until the time Frodo decided to finally get lost? Sure, I've killed some time now and then (thank you Internet!), but this is some professional slackerism.

Slackerism? Never heard that one before. Remember that Sauron wasn't just building his strength in Mordor, he was just recently defeated and thrown out of Dol-Goldur. I'm sure it took Sauron time to recover from that complete dissaster, plus it took time for him to rebuild Barad-Dur and his forces within the curtains of the mountains of Mordor. I think Sauron was anything but slacking, you might call him very productive in those last hundred or so years.

As for your theory with Gollum, could it be that Gollum was confused? It is said that Sauron and the Ring were one, could it be that Sauron's pull was similar to the Ring's? Just one of those random thoughts I just thought I'd throw out there.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

As for your theory with Gollum, could it be that Gollum was confused? It is said that Sauron and the Ring were one, could it be that Sauron's pull was similar to the Ring's? Just one of those random thoughts I just thought I'd throw out there.

I think this makes sense as well, although I am not sure that the pull of the Ring is at quite the same level as the force Sauron exerts himself. If the Ring itself was so strong, one would have expected one of Sauron's servants (especially the Nazgul) to have detected the presence of Gollum in the Misty Mountains over the 500 year period he was there, or later, have detected the presence of the Ring in the Shire.

I suspect that it was not the case of Gollum answering a clear call from Sauron that he understood, but a case in which he is subjected to a continuous, low level "pull" towards Mordor, similar in kind (if not quite in magnitude) to what Frodo feels when he is near Minas Morgul (he has to be dragged away). The random walk idea, coupled to an almost subliminal pull from Mordor, seems the best explanation.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Remember that Sauron wasn't just building his strength in Mordor, he was just recently defeated and thrown out of Dol-Goldur. I'm sure it took Sauron time to recover from that complete dissaster, plus it took time for him to rebuild Barad-Dur and his forces within the curtains of the mountains of Mordor. I think Sauron was anything but slacking, you might call him very productive in those last hundred or so years.

He was very productive, and note that he left Dol Guldur when *he* chose to leave, as it was just temporary housing until his digs in Mordor were finished - all of that construction dust can irritate the eyes.

Originally Posted by Gandalf, Still Grey

Yet at last, as his shadow grew, Saruman yielded, and the Council put forth its strength and drove the evil out of Mirkwood - and that was in the very year of the finding of this Ring: a strange chance, if chance it was.

But we were too late, as Elrond foresaw. Sauron also had watched us, and had long prepared against our stroke, governing Mordor from afar through Minas Morgul, where his Nine servants dwelt, until all was ready. Then he gave way before us, but only feigned to flee, and soon after came to the Dark Tower and openly declared himself.

Does make one wonder, however, why he fled the launching point for his Ring archeological dig.

As for your theory with Gollum, could it be that Gollum was confused? It is said that Sauron and the Ring were one, could it be that Sauron's pull was similar to the Ring's? Just one of those random thoughts I just thought I'd throw out there.

Gollum had issues, to be sure, but what of this from Gandalf?

Originally Posted by Gandalf, still in the Shire

Wretched fool! In that land he would learn much, too much for his comfort. And sooner or later as he lurked and pried on the borders he would be caught, and taken - for examination. That was the way of it, I fear. When he was found he had already been there long, and was on his way back. On some errand of mischief. But that does not matter much now. His worst mischief was done.

Aragorn found him in 3017? So what's up with Sauron? Or was Gandalf confused?