The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-11-2008, 09:06 AM   #1
skip spence
shadow of a doubt
 
skip spence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the streets
Posts: 1,125
skip spence is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.skip spence is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Pipe Gandalf The Superhero

Speaking of Gandalf on Legate’s "power" thread I came to think of a quote I recently read in TT (as I remember it, the movie scene and dialogue were similar to the book's). The episode I'm thinking of is when Gandalf The White first appears and speaks with Aragorn and co in Fangorn.

G says:

Quote:
Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me
That's remarkable, isn't it? What would happen if Legolas shot straight at him? Would the arrow have clinked off him as if shot at a steel plate or just passed straight though his body? Gandalf the White is a real superhero, isn't he? I mean, Sauron, the Balrogs, even Morgoth could be hurt and "killed" bodily by physical weapons, but here Gandalf states than not even the famous Andruil, that once helped to finish off Sauron, could hurt him.

Or perhaps only 'evil' weapons could hurt Gandalf the same way as only 'blessed' weapons could hurt the Nazgul?

And could this be because he was reborn? I think I remember reading somewhere that reincarnated Elves may choose to be seen or not and pass straight through physical barriers at their discretion. But could Gandalf really do that you think?

Also, the Maiar are said to be able to shift shape or walk unclad right? Do you think Gandalf could do that ? How about Saruman? Sauron certainly could before his first disembodiment in Numenor.
__________________
"You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way" ~ Bob Dylan

Last edited by skip spence; 09-13-2008 at 01:36 AM.
skip spence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2008, 10:57 AM   #2
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
Legate of Amon Lanc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skip spence View Post
And could this be because he was reborn? I think I remember reading somewhere that reincarnated Elves may choose to be seen or not and pass straight through physical barriers at their discretion. But could Gandalf really do that you think?
Hmm... I think that could be the answer, indeed. Actually, I would be also curious to see, maybe some people who are more familiar with HoME or the Letters could tell us what else Tolkien wrote about this subject, because I recall vividly some thread on which exactly this was mentioned. Unfortunately, I don't recall which one, but it was about a year ago, if not more. Anyhow, the idea which remained in my mind until then, was that his body indeed gained some different "quality", I believe there was (on the thread) some comparison with the seemingly strange quality of the body of Christ when he was risen from the dead (which as well may have been an inspiration for Tolkien, or, rather I am quite convinced it was). Nevertheless it does not clarify much what all things were special about Gandalf's body.

Quote:
Also, the Maiar are said to be able to shift shape or walk unclad right? Do you think Gandalf could do that ? How about Saruman? Sauron certainly could before his first disembodiment in Numenor.
Right, but the Wizards are probably forbidden from that, I would say. Things like Manwë's words upon sending the Istari (and other passages, for example from the Silmarillion - Of the Rings of Power etc.) imply that:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unfinished Tales, Istari
...[The Istari] must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men.
The Wizard form was, seemingly, the only one form the Maiar sent into Middle-Earth were allowed to use. I just wonder what it was like with Radagast - he is referred to as

Quote:
Originally Posted by FotR, Council of Elrond
a worthy Wizard, a master of shapes and changes of hue
and given his familiarity with the animals and beasts, one just cannot chase away the image of Radagast shapeshifting into a bear or a squirrel and chatting (pun intended ) with the various inhabitants of the forest. But, if he could - either just because that would be possible, or because he would dare to trespass the ban of the Valar not to use any other shapes or powers - then why could not Saruman do the same (after his fall)? Of course, it may be so that Radagast did not shapeshift at all. But as I say, the idea is just too persistent.
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories
Legate of Amon Lanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2008, 11:42 AM   #3
skip spence
shadow of a doubt
 
skip spence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the streets
Posts: 1,125
skip spence is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.skip spence is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc View Post
...then why could not Saruman do the same (after his fall)? Of course, it may be so that Radagast did not shapeshift at all. But as I say, the idea is just too persistent.
Well, Eomer says:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TT; The Riders Of Rohan
It is ill dealing with such a foe: he is a wizard both cunning and dwimmer-crafty, having many guises.
Btw, I like your idea of Radagast in the shape of a squirrel gossiping and munching nuts with the other rodents of the forest.
__________________
"You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way" ~ Bob Dylan
skip spence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2008, 12:03 PM   #4
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
Legate of Amon Lanc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.
Well, it seems kind of natural to me. However, as to Éomer's words, "guises" may be just simply a disguise for an old man who goes to pick some wood to Fangorn, as we know it from the book. (Okay, maybe not exactly pick wood...) So not really any shapeshifting, just maybe some "spell-enhanced" change of clothes and such. Gandalf tells Gimli at Isengard that Saruman may choose to look like Gandalf in Gimli's eyes if it fits his purposes, however I believe this too doesn't refer to actual shapeshifting but to mere seeming, the same as his Voice - after all, he sure wouldn't seem the same to everyone's eyes, and it would be physically impossible to achieve that by shapeshifting.
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories
Legate of Amon Lanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2008, 03:02 AM   #5
Thinlómien
Shady She-Penguin
 
Thinlómien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 8,093
Thinlómien is wading through the Dead Marshes.Thinlómien is wading through the Dead Marshes.Thinlómien is wading through the Dead Marshes.Thinlómien is wading through the Dead Marshes.Thinlómien is wading through the Dead Marshes.Thinlómien is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Please, stop talking about Radagast as a squirrel. It reminds me all too much of the Disney movie The Sword in the Stone where Merlin transforms himself into a squirrel and gets harrassed by a rather insistent female squirrel...


Anyway, this thread did make me think. I can't answer the initial question, nor anything stemmed from it this far, but rather, I'm going to present another point the thread title reminds me of... Gandalf really is a superhero. He doesn't always defeat his foes easily or even win, but he seems to be rathe good in everything. Is there really anything he's bad at? Of course he's a maia and therefore very powerful, but he seems to be a jack-of-all-trades unlike the other maiar we meet, who are most often specialised in something and less good at other things.
__________________
Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer
Blood is running deep, some things never sleep
Double Fenris

Last edited by Thinlómien; 09-15-2008 at 07:32 AM.
Thinlómien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2008, 07:25 AM   #6
skip spence
shadow of a doubt
 
skip spence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the streets
Posts: 1,125
skip spence is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.skip spence is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinlómien View Post
Please, stop talking about Radagast as a squirrel. It reminds me all too much of the Disney movie The Sword in the Stone where Merlin transforms himself to a squirrel and gets harrassed by a rather insistent female squirrel...
Hm. That is rather disturbing. Remember it's said that Radagast strayed from his true mission because he fell in love with the birds and beasts.

Quote:
Is there really anything he's bad at?
Gandalf couldn't boil eggs. No matter how often he tried, they always seemed to get either too runny or too hard.
__________________
"You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way" ~ Bob Dylan
skip spence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2008, 12:30 PM   #7
Eönwë
Flame Imperishable
 
Eönwë's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Right here
Posts: 3,928
Eönwë is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Eönwë is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Eönwë is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinlómien View Post
Gandalf really is a superhero. He doesn't always defeat his foes easily or even win, but he seems to be rathe good in everything. Is there really anything he's bad at? Of course he's a maia and therefore very powerful, but he seems to be a jack-of-all-trades unlike the other maiar we meet, who are most often specialised in something and less good at other things.
Do you mean like a good Melkor (but a Maia)? Only wiser (Or is he? Depends what counts as wise. And you can't measure a Vala's wisdom).
__________________
Welcome to the Barrow Do-owns Forum / Such a lovely place

Last edited by Eönwë; 09-15-2008 at 01:07 PM.
Eönwë is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2008, 02:42 PM   #8
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
Legate of Amon Lanc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinlómien View Post
Anyway, this thread did make me think. I can't answer the initial question, nor anything stemmed from it this far, but rather, I'm going to present another point the thread title reminds me of... Gandalf really is a superhero. He doesn't always defeat his foes easily or even win, but he seems to be rathe good in everything. Is there really anything he's bad at? Of course he's a maia and therefore very powerful, but he seems to be a jack-of-all-trades unlike the other maiar we meet, who are most often specialised in something and less good at other things.
Well, let's see. Obviously, even among the mortals (and we are now talking about Gandalf here, not Olórin, of course), there were better warriors than Gandalf, and probably (so is the impression I get) more knowledgeable men or Elves (in the sense: they would get better results at the university, or such, this is how I would illustrate it), but still, he was a good warrior, he was a knowledgeable and intelligent person... Obviously, he was also quite persuasive (although he didn't misuse it) and he had a good empathy with others. As it was already mentioned, however, I think he was not that self-assured. Already as Olórin, he was afraid of Sauron. But when he wasn't aware of that (when he didn't have time to think about that), like in some rushed or dangerous situations, he didn't have time to consciously think of being afraid, so he could work to the full of his potential. Or so I see it
Otherwise, I don't think that for example Gandalf was well-educated in, let's say, "natural sciencies" (besides being friends with Treebeard - lots of what he knew actually came from his own main strength, which was being friends with lots of people or creatures), and I don't recall him being an efficient "outdoorsman" or such things. And overall, what I said about the knowledge, I don't think Gandalf actually had that much information in his own head, for one of the "Wise". I think he may have just used his... general wisdom, kind of, to find out where to look for things he needed (Scroll of Isildur) or to add two and two, but he needed to learn about the two and two from elsewhere before he could use his wisdom and add them together, if you get my meaning.
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories
Legate of Amon Lanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:18 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.