Are Orcs That Bad?

[Lalwendë]

I was thinking about the other day about how the Orcs have never really scared me as 'baddies' in any way, shape or form. Yet the Cybermen still have me quaking in my boots because the very thought of humans modifying themselves so that they end up as a race of heartless, homogeneous cybernetic things is just horrible.

So that made me think about how the Orcs are clearly not just 'cannon fodder' either, a mindless, evil mass of enemies who must be put to the sword. Tolkien actually said that they were not beyond redemption, thus they're not such 100% dreadful things that they must be wiped out at all costs. Unlike Daleks (sorry to draw in another Whovian comparison, but hey....).

Then that brought me on to thinking about how Tolkien made it so that Morgoth could not create his own beings, he could only corrupt. That to me opens a whole can of worms because can you say that it's the fault of the Orcs that they behave so badly? Tolkien even muddies things by showing us Orcs chatting happily about retirement!

Tolkien toyed with having them just be mindless beasts, too, but that just doesn't work as a mindless, unintelligent enemy isn't really much of a threat.

Really, the only reason I want Aragorn & Co to hack off Orc heads is that they aren't the good guys, and I want the good guys to live. I don't actually hate the Orcs because there's not a lot of reason to do so. They're ugly, they eat man-flesh, they are cruel. But it's not really their fault, is it? Plus they're not beyond redemption either, so wiping a load of them out is hardly on a scale with Doctor Who sending an army of evil Daleks into the Void, is it?

Are the Orcs not that good at being bad guys, or is it that this notion of them being corrupted muddies the waters too much for them to be seen as really bad.

So. Do Orcs actually work as fictional Bad Guys?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

So. Do Orcs actually work as fictional Bad Guys?

Yes, because it is because they are not pure evil that they are interesting. It gives things more perspective, and makes things more real. Of course, they are less redeemable than the races of men in the south, but that is because they are part of Morgoth's work. It's not their fault, but they still have unstoppable and unignorable traits that make them seem more evil. They are probably also [designed to be] more susceptible to being evil, and being selfish by nature they are more easily seduced (in the sense of luring) to the bad side. Greed gets in the way of them seeing what's Right or Wrong. And even more importantly, they are brought up in Mordor (or Isengard, or anywhere else with orcs). This means that being Bad is passed down, by parents (did Orcs have parents?) or at least everyone they knew or were friends (hmmm...) with.

The question is, would an orc brought up by "good" elves still be evil? Obviously, it doesn't seem that any elf would take one in, but you never know. Would they be more easily corrupted than all the elves they are around? I have a feeling Morgoth designed them to be more sensitive towards evil, and/or to be attracted to it.

On another note, the nature of good and evil (or if they even exist) is debatable, and so is greed and power-hunger.

[Lalwendë]

But does it work having an enemy that is not 'pure evil' when they are slaughtered on a massive scale? And does it actually make them frightening? The main way Orcs scare us is by sheer force of numbers against the good guys who we love, or even against slightly infuriating heroes like those we see in the Sil (as opposed to the more 'shiny' figures in LotR - but there's another thread in that one ).

Would it be better if Orcs were incapable of being redeemed? I think they would be much more frightening.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

One aspect that tends to make orcs interesting
(and clearly not totally evil) is when they are
personalized. Perhaps the best example is
Rosenkrantz and Gilderstern (i. e. Gorbag and
Shagrat), who seemed to have been in the
past friends and freelancers.

(Gorbag) "But anyway, if it (The War
of the Ring) does go well, there should be a lot
more room. What d'you say? - if we get a chance,
you and me'll slip off and set up somewhere on our
own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there's
good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses. "
"Ah!" said Shagrat, "Like old times".

And might the influence of the Ring have had an affect in
setting these (by Orcish standards) friends so violently
and quickly against each other?

[Morthoron]

There was always something disconcerting in the passage from "Over Hill and Under Hill" in The Hobbit:

It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them, and not working with their own hands more than they could help; but in those days, and those wild parts they had not advanced (as it is called) so far.

Now, what is particularly troubling is that they hadn't advanced so far as of yet. I do believe Tolkien is intimating that Orcs (or at least Orkishness) will continue to proliferate long after the time period of the tale (and, although it had not yet been written, far further than the events of the Lord of the Rings, which occurred a few score years after The Hobbit).

I had always wondered, given that Tolkien later gave up on the idea that Orcs originally came from elvish stock, and rather arose from mortal men, that Orcs eventually blended into the human race. I know we discussed this somewhere before, but I still find the concept fascinating (and this is especially true when some people look downright Orkish, particularly when vehemently angry -- the distortions of the faces of folk in a frenzied mob look subhuman).

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Now, what is particularly troubling is that they hadn't advanced so far as of yet. I do believe Tolkien is intimating that Orcs (or at least Orkishness) will continue to proliferate long after the time period of the tale (and, although it had not yet been written, far further than the events of the Lord of the Rings, which occurred a few score years after The Hobbit).

I had always wondered, given that Tolkien later gave up on the idea that Orcs originally came from elvish stock, and rather arose from mortal men, that Orcs eventually blended into the human race. I know we discussed this somewhere before, but I still find the concept fascinating (and this is especially true when some people look downright Orkish, particularly when vehemently angry -- the distortions of the faces of folk in a frenzied mob look subhuman).

I agree with what your saying. As I've stated elsewhere, I think it's a mistake to see Orcs as a distinct species from Men and/or Elves. Orcs are rather a representation of the dark side of humanity and they do nothing that Men haven't done a million times thoughout history, which is why they in my opinion are very convincing as the bad guys - much more so then if they were mindless killing machines.

The fact that there are Half-Orcs, Orc-Men and other mixed races that can blend into human societies unnoticed also suggest that Men and Orcs aren't different species like Men and Dwarves are, but rather different "races" that can be distinguished from each other only in the same way as can say caucasians, mongolians or blacks. The RPGs and movies have us seing Orcs as humaniod monsters with greenish skin, fangs, claws and cat-eyes. Tolkien, as far as I'm aware, described them as "degraded" forms of human beings. The difference between Orcs and Men is cultural more than biological and I certainly believe that an Orcling brought up into a nice fosterfamily in Lindon probably would grow up to be a fairly decent individual if is wasn't for that nasty Elvish habit of making fun of anyone who's different.

Now as for the orgins of Orcs this is a can of worms, as Tolkien also discovered. However, if we keep it simple Elves and Men share the same kind of physical body and can have children together so Orcs might have their orgins in both peoples.
It's when we start taking about the soul or fea we run into problems.

[Laurinquë]

I never really considered the Orcs to be intrinsically evil creatures, nothing is 100% evil like you said Lalwendë. They can't really help themselves, they were made to be evil and raised to be evil, they aren't really and truly evil if they don't understand that what they do is considered wrong. But then many villens don't think they are doing anything particularly bad, or that what they think they do right cancels out any other wrongs they make.

But whether they work as bad guys, of course they do. We love the good guys and anybody who threatens them is automatically made out as villens.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Laurinquë

I never really considered the Orcs to be intrinsically evil creatures, nothing is 100% evil like you said Lalwendë. They can't really help themselves, they were made to be evil and raised to be evil, they aren't really and truly evil if they don't understand that what they do is considered wrong.

There's another thing to consider...can they actually be evil if they have no choice in the matter? I think Tolkien considered this himself which is why he said they would be capable of redemption. However, that then also makes them less frightening...and pushes the matter of dealing with Orcs into questions of morality.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Now, what is particularly troubling is that they hadn't advanced so far as of yet. I do believe Tolkien is intimating that Orcs (or at least Orkishness) will continue to proliferate long after the time period of the tale (and, although it had not yet been written, far further than the events of the Lord of the Rings, which occurred a few score years after The Hobbit).

I had always wondered, given that Tolkien later gave up on the idea that Orcs originally came from elvish stock, and rather arose from mortal men, that Orcs eventually blended into the human race. I know we discussed this somewhere before, but I still find the concept fascinating (and this is especially true when some people look downright Orkish, particularly when vehemently angry -- the distortions of the faces of folk in a frenzied mob look subhuman).

Do you think this was Tolkien allowing too much of his own feelings about the real world to creep into his creation? I do. It's all very well setting it up that the worst traits of human (mis)behaviour stem from Orcish blood (and quite intriguing), however he neatly skips the fact that in his tales a lot of Elves, Men and Dwarves without a single drop of Orcish blood did plenty of bad things too. It lacks coherence.

I personally think that had he allowed Morgoth to create the Orcs himself, Tolkien would have been free from ethical and moral concerns in creating the race. He could have made them mad, bad and dangerous to know, a relentless, ruthless and 'other' enemy that had to be dealt with. Of course, this would alter his ideas about sub-creation but then I think the Orc Problem kind of spoils that concept in any case.