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07-23-2008, 09:53 AM | #1 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
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Manwë stumbles
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Surely Sauron, that foul champion of every poison that Melkor spewed, had his hand in Númenor's destruction, but he wouldn't have done so much so quickly if Men hadn't been so eager to listen to his lies. The Númenóreans were not blameless, but how deep lay their guilt, and how dark then their punishment? The First Born had shown to be just as foolish, and yet... Manwë sight could look back to that day. Children, not more than a few years old, struggled to stay above the waters that eventually dragged them down. Flora and fauna, still stainless and innocent, were drowned as surely as those that threw their brothers onto the burning altar. On that day Manwë thought the problem too big, too subtle, too sad, to handle without guidance from Iluvatar, who knew the beginning and the end and all points in between. Manwë asked Eru to help, and so had laid down his authority of Arda, believing that Eru would put things to right, as Eru would be just and caring. In all of the long days when Manwë and the Valar fought for control of Arda, Manwë had never sought such help as he did that day. Not when Aman was darkened, not when elf slew elf, staining the seas with blood, did he set aside his kingship. When they broke the doors of Angband and cast Morgoth into the Void, Manwë was in charge. The one time he wasn't, and the Land of the Gift, and all that was beautiful and innocent and vile and dark was destroyed. The combatants in their small ships were one thing, but what of those drowned children? Why did Iluvatar do this? It was then, the first time since Manwë first sang his first note, that he began to doubt The One... *** I've always understood why Melkor couldn't be redeemed. It was in his nature, much like Saruman ages later, to continue to gnaw at the small twisted plots though they clearly led to ruin. It's been my observation that, absent some epiphanical life event-explosion, that people continue to act as they do with little variance. What I'm saying that, after a certain age (and it varies for each individual), certain behavioral patterns lock in and people use those as they go through life. A person who is a jerk may continue that lifestyle until the end, though he be friendless and yet wondering why. In other instances you see someone have some huge life event, then completely change. Sometimes this is a good thing; other times, not so much. So, given that, why is it that we don't ever 'worry' that one day Manwë will wake up (if he ever sleeps) and turn to the dark side? Again, I never wonder about this in regards to Melkor, but the rest of them, I'm not too sure. And note that I've wondered about this in regards to Abrahamic religions in that if a third of the angels fell with Lucifer (and they had no snake to tempt them), what would stop another third from falling sometime between now and the end of eternity? How does Tolkien's Manwë stay faithful?
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07-23-2008, 11:17 AM | #2 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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I think the answer can be put from several directions, also depending on the way you look at it.
A) Manwë would simply never "fall to the dark side", because that's the way we feel it from the story. I think most, if not all the readers have this feeling. Otherwise, Manwë knows lot of Ilúvatar's mind... maybe even for example if there is any deeper reason behind the drowning of Númenor he may actually understand why the innocents have died... etc... B) (Is rather a continuing of the first, but I am putting this apart to emphasise the different "level" of it.) Manwë could eventually doubt Ilúvatar sometimes, but his faith in Ilúvatar's doing being good would ultimately convince him to stay true to what Ilúvatar set before him. C) (This could also go together with both those named above, it's just another way of seeing the things.) Manwë (and Valar) are simply "pre-destined" by Eru NOT to fall. Point. (This actually may be true in the deeper sense if you look at the story from the "outside" point of view, again, Tolkien wrote the characters in some way, so they are predestined by his inkpen, so to say. Of course Tolkien didn't write about what Manwë does in the Fourth Age, but if he continued to, the characters would be still predestined by his inkpen as he was in the ages before, where we knew Manwë as faithful to Eru. And again, one would probably assume he wouldn't differ from the Manwë we know.) D) Yes, it's possible that Manwë would eventually fall. There's always a possibility. I think there can't be said much more than this (basically).
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07-23-2008, 01:05 PM | #3 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,996
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smack down
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Melkor had no forerunner so he could not conceive what his loss would be like. Manwe knew/knows what the cost of pride/ambition/rebellion is. This is the right use of longevity, rather than the nostalgia to which the elves were prey.
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07-23-2008, 01:21 PM | #4 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Our laws today, with the threat of punishment, are obviously not deterrents. So what you are saying is that, if not for the example of Melkor's punishment, Manwe would be running amok? Not sure that that's what I'm getting at. Maybe, to speak more in your terms, why is Manwe such the dog? Isn't there even a bit of feline in him, making him want to tease his "master," if not outright disobey him? Why were the teams decided so long ago for these beings? Is there never even a thought of playing for the other side? Could Eru do something that would push Manwe into rebellion? Think how lucky a parent Eru is, never having to wonder which 'kid' broke the vase.
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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
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07-23-2008, 02:01 PM | #5 | |||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,996
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You are of the race of Man, a third creation. Manwe is of the Valar, the first created. I think there must be folk wisdom that talks of declining vigour and virility as creation continues. And anyway, Manwe was of lesser power than Melkor, wasn't he? Weren't they all? It was only Melkor who went into the void seeking the Flame Imperishable. Beware the loner.
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(The rainbow is often regarded sentimentally as God's promise not to destroy life, but it also means that God has left man to his own responsibility, so it becomes a stoic reminder that we are on our own now.) Interestingly, Tolkien's Eru does not voice any kind of regret over the loss of Numenor or the removal the Deathless Realm, not regret such as is suggested in the Bible. Nor does he offer to save Numemor if a few faithful can be found. Nor does Eru ever make any kind of covenant with Elendil. Note that any seriousness on my part is a small effort to forestall any further fanfiction attempts by you. But I suppose you've given more ideas for Lush's bad fanfic thread.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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07-23-2008, 03:20 PM | #6 | |||||||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
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Thanks for the responses.
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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
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07-23-2008, 04:56 PM | #7 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Eschewing the Biblical parallels and such, I always figured Eru's motives -- and quite likely a lot of the motives of the Valar -- were beyond the full comprehension of the Men and Elves who recorded the tale of the Akallabeth. Manwe and Melkor always struck me as somewhat akin to the twin brothers Nissyen and Efnissyen of the Welsh Mabinogian, two halves of a whole in terms of good and evil (although Efnissyen is less absolute in his evil, since he repents in the end and sacrifices himself to destroy the Cauldron and save the Welsh forces from its armies of Undead, something I can't picture Melkor doing). It is said in the Silmarillion (IIRC) that Manwe cannot comprehend evil, having within him no evil. This is the first time that Valinor was directly assailed by armies of the Eruhini; my suspicion has long been that Manwe simply didn't know how to handle the situation. The Secondborn in particular have a fate unknown to him; any major action against them might subvert that destiny. So he falls back to asking Eru to take a hand, since He will know what the situation demands. It seems a rather extreme measure -- not unlike the Great Flood, since one has to assume there were innocent children in the world, even if every adult in existence was corrupt -- but by this point, it may have been the best solution to a problem the Valar themselves began when they did not deal with Melkor more expediently, and brought the Elves to Valinor, rather than trust that Eru would protect His Children while the Valar handled Melkor. Because he is good and without evil does not mean Manwe is free from mistakes. Perhaps if he had called upon Eru for help a long time before, the destruction of Numenor would not have happened. If the privilege of dwelling in Aman had not been granted to the Elves, they and Men would have had to find ways to coexist in Middle-earth -- with Melkor and his minions subdued before they had a chance to so thoroughly spoil the world.
Well, that's what's been burbling around my head for a while.
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07-24-2008, 07:28 AM | #8 | ||
Flame Imperishable
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On a different note, Ulmo, in a way, caused Numenor, by helping Tuor. In fact, during its destruction, maybe that is why the Valar "laid down their government of Arda" for the time, because Ulmo would not do it. And maybe in that case, Ulmo would be right. Maybe by destroying Numenor Eru was just doing a favour for the Valar, after all the good they did for him and in his name. Or he could have got angry. Or maybe Eru was just trying to protect his Valar, and got only slightly carried away. He might not have wanted to do it all. He might have regretted it too, but no-one would have ever told mere Eldar that their Father and creator could make a mistake. Even without such cause to doubt him the Numenoreans had turned away from him to "Melkor worship", so imagine what would have happened if one of the "good" Vala like Manwe had told the Faithful (or any other men, or even elves, for that matter) of Eru's mistake. Even if the Faithful disagreed with the "turned-bad" Numenoreans, they were still related, still of the same blood. Even the Eldar have been known to doubt the "good" Valar (e.g. Feanor in the First Age). So, if this was the case, he was protecting them from themselves and their own wrong judgement. Wouldn't you lose faith if you found out that someone had wrongly destroyed your whole former country and killed everyone in/on it? I would definately doubt the Valar and/or Eru. It might have been the biggest cover-up in ME history. Quote:
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Last edited by Eönwë; 07-24-2008 at 08:01 AM. Reason: resolved an unresolved and unfinished point |
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07-24-2008, 08:45 AM | #9 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2008
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To me, it seems that when they made Numenor for the Edain, the Valar didn't understand the nature of jealousy. A gift that brings one too close to what they cannot have, and thus reminds them of what they cannot -- indeed, are forbidden to -- have, isn't much of a gift at all, IMHO; sooner or later, someone thus "rewarded" is going to think that it's not a reward, and become jealous and angry. Why the Valar didn't foresee this possibility (probability?) has long puzzled me.
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Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. — John Stewart Mill |
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