Origin of Ungoliant - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Phil The Balrog · 12-23-2001, 09:29 PM

Hey, its me again. In the Quenta Section 4 in HoME, Ungoliant is mentioned as coming "perhaps from the Outer Darkness." Is this referring to space, or the surrounding universe, and what is this Outer Darkness' nature as compared to say Space in our world? The amusing thing is that she came from somewhere, space or no, and that she or her predecessors were no doubt created by something, or perhaps perverted by something. If Iluvatar didnt make Ungoliant the way she was, then there are obvoiously some malevolent forces at work beyond the bounds of Middle Earth. Creepy stuff.

12-23-2001, 10:16 PM

I know that Shelob is descended from Ungoliant. But is it written what she did before she met Sam and Frodo?

Elendur · 12-26-2001, 06:18 AM

I can only guess that the outer darkness refers to The Void where Eru created the Ainur and Maiar.. you know what Im talking about. How Ungoliant was corrupted? Maybe it was just a Maia like Melkor who had its own dark purposes and descended into Ea for its own reasons.

Eldar14 · 12-26-2001, 10:58 AM

I brought up a thread like this a while back, and felt I should mention some things from it. First, could Ungoliant be a Maia considering that she was powerful enough that Melkor (arguably the most powerful Valar) was afraid of her. Second, her corruption may have stemmed from Melkor, the evidence for this is that I think that in HOME I it says that Melkor had had dealing with Ungoliant before. Last, somone brought up that she could somehow be related in origin to Tom Bombadil.

AAAAHHHH! I menitoned Tom; this thread is doomed to spiral off into chaotic arguing about Tom's origin. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

the witch king · 11-29-2002, 10:46 AM

thats a hard 1 im gessin she was of some unknowen race of spirit takin physical form to full fill her own dark purposes

DaughterofVana · 11-29-2002, 09:04 PM

Eldar 14 (and everyone else)--

Tolkien said that the evil things in middle earth are only corruptions of the good--it was alluded to with the creation of the Uruk-hai, and delt with more vividly in the Silmarillion with the fall of Melkor. Yet here's the rub: if Ungoliant was courrupted by Melkor, then what was She catagorized when she was uncorrupted (and thus her ultimate identity)? She couldn't have still been catagorized as what She was prior to the corruption, for the corrupted beings change their names after the deed was done (I.E., Elves = Uruk-hai). Did she exist previously in another form prior to the Song? Or was she created after/before/during the creatures of Ea? Or does this little meander just fall back into the stalemate of "was Ungoliant a Valar"?

THAT one I have trouble swallowing. Ungoliant and her Daughters are described as being foul-looking and unpleasant, like the corruptions of Melkor (orcs, goblins, etc.). Yet Melkor himself was outwardly beautiful (being as he was the most powerful Valar), though he fell to evil purposes. Doesn't that make the argument of Ungoliant's origin lean more towards Her being a creation of something, more directly something evil? If so, then who (or what)?

-'Vana

[ December 01, 2002: Message edited by: DaughterofVana ]

Legolas · 11-29-2002, 11:39 PM

Ungoliant was not a Vala. Only 14 of those. She wasn't a Maia either. Valar and Maiar are job descriptions...not really races, since they're all Ainur. Maiar are only the Ainur who came into Arda and aided the Valar. The other are simply Ainur serving their own purposes (Ungoliant? Tom?).

Anyway, this topic has been covered before. Do a search for Ungoliant.

thorondil · 11-30-2002, 04:04 PM

I think it is more than likely that Ungoliant was one of the Ainur who followed Melkor in his discord.

In the Sil it states (with the qualifier "The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said...) that she descended from the darkness around Arda, "when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service."

As for Melkor being afraid of her (suggesting that she was more powerful), remember that "the Valar drew unto them many companions, some less, some well nigh as great as themselves." Also, she had just sucked the light out of the Trees, and drained the Wells of Varda, and "had grown great, and he (Melkor) less by the power that had gone out of him..."

12-23-2001, 09:29 PM	#1
Phil The Balrog Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 11	Origin of Ungoliant Hey, its me again. In the Quenta Section 4 in HoME, Ungoliant is mentioned as coming "perhaps from the Outer Darkness." Is this referring to space, or the surrounding universe, and what is this Outer Darkness' nature as compared to say Space in our world? The amusing thing is that she came from somewhere, space or no, and that she or her predecessors were no doubt created by something, or perhaps perverted by something. If Iluvatar didnt make Ungoliant the way she was, then there are obvoiously some malevolent forces at work beyond the bounds of Middle Earth. Creepy stuff. __________________ -Yes, I'm Phil the Balrog.

12-26-2001, 06:18 AM	#3
Elendur Wight Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Arnor Posts: 200	I can only guess that the outer darkness refers to The Void where Eru created the Ainur and Maiar.. you know what Im talking about. How Ungoliant was corrupted? Maybe it was just a Maia like Melkor who had its own dark purposes and descended into Ea for its own reasons. __________________ Son of Isildur.

12-26-2001, 10:58 AM	#4
Eldar14 Wight Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: the Cottage of Lost Play Posts: 182	I brought up a thread like this a while back, and felt I should mention some things from it. First, could Ungoliant be a Maia considering that she was powerful enough that Melkor (arguably the most powerful Valar) was afraid of her. Second, her corruption may have stemmed from Melkor, the evidence for this is that I think that in HOME I it says that Melkor had had dealing with Ungoliant before. Last, somone brought up that she could somehow be related in origin to Tom Bombadil. AAAAHHHH! I menitoned Tom; this thread is doomed to spiral off into chaotic arguing about Tom's origin. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ "Come away! Let the cowards keep this city!" -- Fëanor to the Noldor

11-29-2002, 10:46 AM	#5
the witch king Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Minas Morgul, Morgul Vale, Mordor Posts: 201	thats a hard 1 im gessin she was of some unknowen race of spirit takin physical form to full fill her own dark purposes __________________ 'Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.'~ Che Guevara.

11-29-2002, 09:04 PM	#6
DaughterofVana Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: twirling contentedly in a flower-filled field Posts: 134	Eldar 14 (and everyone else)-- Tolkien said that the evil things in middle earth are only corruptions of the good--it was alluded to with the creation of the Uruk-hai, and delt with more vividly in the Silmarillion with the fall of Melkor. Yet here's the rub: if Ungoliant was courrupted by Melkor, then what was She catagorized when she was uncorrupted (and thus her ultimate identity)? She couldn't have still been catagorized as what She was prior to the corruption, for the corrupted beings change their names after the deed was done (I.E., Elves = Uruk-hai). Did she exist previously in another form prior to the Song? Or was she created after/before/during the creatures of Ea? Or does this little meander just fall back into the stalemate of "was Ungoliant a Valar"? THAT one I have trouble swallowing. Ungoliant and her Daughters are described as being foul-looking and unpleasant, like the corruptions of Melkor (orcs, goblins, etc.). Yet Melkor himself was outwardly beautiful (being as he was the most powerful Valar), though he fell to evil purposes. Doesn't that make the argument of Ungoliant's origin lean more towards Her being a creation of something, more directly something evil? If so, then who (or what)? -'Vana [ December 01, 2002: Message edited by: DaughterofVana ] __________________ "There is a kind of happiness and wonder that makes you serious. It is too good to waste on jokes." Hi! Did you miss me?

12-23-2001, 10:16 PM	#2
John of the Race of Men Guest Posts: n/a	I know that Shelob is descended from Ungoliant. But is it written what she did before she met Sam and Frodo?

11-29-2002, 11:39 PM	#7
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Ungoliant was not a Vala. Only 14 of those. She wasn't a Maia either. Valar and Maiar are job descriptions...not really races, since they're all Ainur. Maiar are only the Ainur who came into Arda and aided the Valar. The other are simply Ainur serving their own purposes (Ungoliant? Tom?). Anyway, this topic has been covered before. Do a search for Ungoliant. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

11-30-2002, 04:04 PM	#8
thorondil Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 53	I think it is more than likely that Ungoliant was one of the Ainur who followed Melkor in his discord. In the Sil it states (with the qualifier "The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said...) that she descended from the darkness around Arda, "when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service." As for Melkor being afraid of her (suggesting that she was more powerful), remember that "the Valar drew unto them many companions, some less, some well nigh as great as themselves." Also, she had just sucked the light out of the Trees, and drained the Wells of Varda, and "had grown great, and he (Melkor) less by the power that had gone out of him..." __________________ only that Part from which he came