What was Shelob, and more importantly, what was Ungoliant?

[Eönwë]

Ungoliant allowed Melkor to ride her ( a whole Vala, I think they are around the size of a hill it says someewhere) and tshe s the darkness and weaves her threads. The fact that she can destroy the two trees shoes her power. BUt I know she is not an Ainu.

Maybe she is like Tom Bombadil, but the opposite?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

An interesting idea with Tom Bombadil, but I always considered Ungoliant a Maia and nothing I saw this far opposes it. The Silmarillion says:

Originally Posted by Chapter 8; Of the Darkening of Valinor

The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwë, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service.

"And that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service" to me creates associations with the Maiar who were swayed by Melkor to join him. To me, this is clear enough. It is true she could have been otherwise, but everything speaks for that she was an Ainu. On what evidence do you base your opinon that she was not an Ainu?

And by the way, are you sure he was riding her? Did she not just accompany him?

[mormegil]

I don't believe anywhere do we see that Ungoliant was with the other Maiar. Plus if I remember correctly I don't think any of the valar actually knew where she came from and they would know if she were vala or maia.

[The Might]

Well, she does seem to resemble the Balrogs in a way. Joins Melkor, comes down on Arda and then assumes a certain shape which she can afterwards no longer change.

Actually the whole idea about Tom Bombadil isn't that bad.
Because, if we think she wasn't an Ainu, then she could just as well be a discord in the music, something in M-e, but not really of M-e like Tom Bombadil.

And, very interestingly, in early writings Ungoliant is reffered to as Múru, which in Quenya would mean Primeval Night.
This does lead to some speculation that she was in a way also a spirit of nature, however a dark and evil one, whereas Tom Bombadil and Goldberry are positive ones.

[Lord Gothmog]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

An interesting idea with Tom Bombadil, but I always considered Ungoliant a Maia and nothing I saw this far opposes it. The Silmarillion says:

"And that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service" to me creates associations with the Maiar who were swayed by Melkor to join him. To me, this is clear enough. It is true she could have been otherwise, but everything speaks for that she was an Ainu. On what evidence do you base your opinon that she was not an Ainu?

And by the way, are you sure he was riding her? Did she not just accompany him?

Actually, there is absolutely nothing that 'speaks for that she was an Ainu', there is only one point that gives a hint that it is possible that she might be. The most important part of your quote is "but some have said". This is not a definitive statement. Actually it is Tolkien's way of 'side-stepping' the question. Either he had not made up his own mind, or he chose to leave it open.

Personally, I prefer Ungoliant to remain a mystery, a second and darker enigma.

And as for Shelob. When Ungoliant fled south after being whipped by the Balrogs, she found and mated with Spider-like creatures. Shelob was the Last of her Children.

[Elmo]

That's a good point millord, aren't the Ainur supposed to be sterile or at least they were in the later legendarium? Edit: But Melian and Thingol...

[Lord Gothmog]

In the later legendarium the Valar and Maiar did not mate and reproduce with each other. In fact the only certain exception to this is Melian. She is the only Ainu to have a child and this was with an Elf.

Melian did not simply incarnate a form similar to that of the Elves, she accually incarnated a form that was capable of having a child with an Elf. It may be that this exception was allowed by Illuvatar specificaly to allow something of the Divine Spirit of the Ainur into Men.

[Eönwë]

So does that mean that possibly Gandalf could incarnate? He is made like a man, with all susceptibility, and weakness of the flesh. He might be able to reproduce. He had to live as a man, so he had everything that goes with it.

Just thinking, what if Saruman had kids. Urgh!

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

An interesting idea with Tom Bombadil, but I always considered Ungoliant a Maia and nothing I saw this far opposes it.

But then wouldn't that mean that her children, including Shelob, would be Maia. I'm not sure how that would work.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

But then wouldn't that mean that her children, including Shelob, would be Maia. I'm not sure how that would work.

Well, if we stayed with this assumption, what about Melian being Maia and her child being the most beautiful of the Elves? Similarly, Ungoliant as Maia could give birth to offspring of the nastiest of all spiders, which surely was true: not Maiar anymore, but also not "normal" spiders, but spiders of the size of a dog (in the degraded version of her grandchildren) or larger (Shelob).

[Nerwen]

My take on this: the line "one of those whom he had corrupted to his service" strongly suggests Ungoliant is an Ainu (if not necessarily a Maia). I think you have to really strain to make it mean anything else.

However, I also believe that is a fairly late concept on Tolkien's part, and that in earlier versions his spider-monster was a being created of darkness or mist or whatever. This is just from memory, though.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

My take on this: the line "one of those whom he had corrupted to his service" strongly suggests Ungoliant is an Ainu (if not necessarily a Maia). I think you have to really strain to make it mean anything else.

*overlooks the others with the expression of superiority in his face*

[Eönwë]

Eru cannot be light or dark, he is the creator. He created light and dark (and unlight), so how could he be one. I see the Secret fire as life, and a soul/spirit/etc. And anyway, Eru isn't pure good. Remember what he says about Melkor's deeds.

Originally Posted by BoLT

Yet is through him [Melko] and not by him; and he shall see, and all ye likewise, and even shall those beings, who must now dwell among his evil and endure through Melko misery and sorrw, terror and wickedness, declare in the end that it redoundeth only to my great glory, and doth but make the theme more worth the hearing, Life worth living, and the World so much the more wonderful and marvellous, that of all the deeds of Illúvatar it shall be called his mightiest and his loveliest

He cares about his design (the music, its intricacies and beauty), not just good and evil. He made them both (maybe the evil was unintentional, but it spawned of him).

The way I see it, Tom Bombadil and Ungoliant (or Ungwe Liante) are equals. Remember what he says to the barrow wight? When he banishes him to the darkness

Originally Posted by FOTR

Get out, you old Wight! Vanish in the sunlight!
Shrivel llike the cold mist, like the winds go wailing,
Out into the barren lands far beyond the mountains!
Come never here again! Leave your barrow empty!
Lost and forgotten be, darker than the darkness,
Where gates stand for ever shut, till the world is mended

Can you see this? He is banishing him out of Arda, to a place darker than the darkness. And he is opposed to this force, the barrow wight. Who is sort of drinking the hobbits's life (maybe connected to light, like in the Two Trees) (if I remember correctly. And is it hroa or ea I'm talking about here?) and Tom Bombadil sends him away. I think that Tom is the opposite of Ungoliant, who has a similar effect (she drinks the Two Trees' light and life), and Tom brings back light (he saves the hobbits in this case. And the fact that Tom is not affected by the ring, and has no power over it shows he is not a Maia, but also Shelob had a chance to take the ring but she didn't (but how would she have worn it). Tom is banishing the barrow away from him, into the Dark, so he must be in the Light. So he probably is the opposite counterpart.

So basically I think that. Ungoliant is Tom's opposite, and Eru is equal (neither good or bad, but giver and taker of life, more, creator of life).

But also, some questions. "All the deeds of Illúvatar"? are there more. And who is there to call this work "his mightiest and his loveliest". Surely not te Ainhu, because they ae his creations too, so they cannot judge themselves against another creation.

[The Might]

I see quite a lot that speaks for Bombadil and Ungoliant being, if not truly opposed beings, at least of similar origin, but I do not see Eru in any way on the same level.
He has powers way beyond those of the other two. While Bombadil is Master in hiw own land, within the boundaries that he had set, Iluvatar is Master over all the creation.

A few quotes to support this thought:

"But Rúmil said: 'Ilúvatar was the first beginning, and beyond that no wisdom of the Valar or of Eldar or of Men can go.' 'Who was Ilúvatar?' asked Eriol. 'Was he of the Gods?' 'Nay,' said Rúmil, 'that he was not, for he made them. Ilúvatar is the Lord for Always who dwells beyond the world; who made it and is not of it nor in it, but loves it.' " ~ BoLT, Music of the Ainu

And also commenting on the "He is." part from FotR he says in a letter:

As for Tom Bombadil, I really do think you are being too serious, besides missing the point. [...] You rather remind me of a Protestant relation who to me objected to the (modern) Catholic habit of calling priests Father, because the name father belonged only to the First Person.

Pretty clear that Bombadil is not God and so in a way subordinated to Eru.