Peter Jackson 'stretched' the film license? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

zxcvbn · 12-17-2007, 08:09 AM

Now, we know that New Line only has the rights to film the Hobbit and LOTR, not the Silmarillion and the HoMe books. But still there is some material from those books that can be seen in the movies. A while ago I was checking out a site containing translations of various inscriptions in the LOTR movies and I found a passage from the tale of Turin Turambar titled 'Imladris Book Inscription' and another passage describing the Ring of Barahir titled 'The Ring of Barahir Inscription'.

Here's the link. http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie_otherinscr.htm

What I want to ask is was the inclusion of these lines illegal(since they come from the Silmarillion) and can the Tolkien Estate sue New Line over them(if they found out)?

Sauron the White · 12-17-2007, 09:24 AM

A lot of this is murky territory that nobody can give a 100% legally rock solid answer about. Because JRRT put so many references and names so much in the Appendices about earlier events described more fully in SIL and HOME, its hard to say exactly with any legal certainty what can and what cannot be used without fear of legal action. I would be willing to bet that the Tolkien Estate has several written lawyers opinion on this as does both Saul Zaentz and New Line Cinema. And I would wager a years salary that they DO NOT all come to the same conclusions about what can be used and what cannot. Maybe somebody has to push that envelope to test those waters?

William Cloud Hicklin · 12-17-2007, 06:57 PM

What it boils down to is that

a) technically an ultra-wonk could probably prove that the depiction/description of the Ring of Barahir, and Gil-Galad's and Elrond's coats of arms, and the account (given to Saruman) of the origin of Orcs, and use of Sindarin vocabulary derived from Silmarillion/HME/Parma Eldalamberon, and a few other trivial details constitue infringement of Tolkien works outside the film licence.

And b) any rational jury would award him about five bucks in damages. Not to mention c) a rational judge calling him a poopoohead.

zxcvbn · 12-20-2007, 10:05 PM

There's more. An entire page from the Akallabeth(although this didn't make it into the final cut of the movies).

I'm talking about the one on the top right.

Sir Kohran · 12-21-2007, 05:33 PM

That photo of the scrolls...

...and to think that people say they ignored the books.

I really doubt there'd be any possible court case here...what's this over, a few names in a movie?

And there's been worse. The Warcraft universe had a dwarven kingdom called Khaz-Modan...sound vaguely familiar? Seems like there's a far more real court case there.

zxcvbn · 12-22-2007, 04:10 AM

The 'possible court case' is over entire passages from books which New Line didn't have rights to appearing in the LOTR films. Here are more scrolls...in Tengwar. There's supposed to be a scroll depicting Akallabeth somewhere here, but I can't read Tengwar.

It's a great pity most of this material never made into the final cut of the film.

12-17-2007, 08:09 AM	#1
zxcvbn Wight Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: In front of my PC Posts: 164	Peter Jackson 'stretched' the film license? Now, we know that New Line only has the rights to film the Hobbit and LOTR, not the Silmarillion and the HoMe books. But still there is some material from those books that can be seen in the movies. A while ago I was checking out a site containing translations of various inscriptions in the LOTR movies and I found a passage from the tale of Turin Turambar titled 'Imladris Book Inscription' and another passage describing the Ring of Barahir titled 'The Ring of Barahir Inscription'. Here's the link. http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie_otherinscr.htm What I want to ask is was the inclusion of these lines illegal(since they come from the Silmarillion) and can the Tolkien Estate sue New Line over them(if they found out)?

12-17-2007, 06:57 PM	#3
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,322	What it boils down to is that a) technically an ultra-wonk could probably prove that the depiction/description of the Ring of Barahir, and Gil-Galad's and Elrond's coats of arms, and the account (given to Saruman) of the origin of Orcs, and use of Sindarin vocabulary derived from Silmarillion/HME/Parma Eldalamberon, and a few other trivial details constitue infringement of Tolkien works outside the film licence. And b) any rational jury would award him about five bucks in damages. Not to mention c) a rational judge calling him a poopoohead. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. Last edited by Thenamir; 12-21-2007 at 11:56 AM. Reason: language

12-21-2007, 05:33 PM	#5
Sir Kohran Wight Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: England, UK Posts: 178	That photo of the scrolls... ...and to think that people say they ignored the books. I really doubt there'd be any possible court case here...what's this over, a few names in a movie? And there's been worse. The Warcraft universe had a dwarven kingdom called Khaz-Modan...sound vaguely familiar? Seems like there's a far more real court case there. __________________ 'Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.'

12-17-2007, 09:24 AM	#2
Sauron the White Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 903	A lot of this is murky territory that nobody can give a 100% legally rock solid answer about. Because JRRT put so many references and names so much in the Appendices about earlier events described more fully in SIL and HOME, its hard to say exactly with any legal certainty what can and what cannot be used without fear of legal action. I would be willing to bet that the Tolkien Estate has several written lawyers opinion on this as does both Saul Zaentz and New Line Cinema. And I would wager a years salary that they DO NOT all come to the same conclusions about what can be used and what cannot. Maybe somebody has to push that envelope to test those waters?

12-20-2007, 10:05 PM	#4
zxcvbn Wight Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: In front of my PC Posts: 164	There's more. An entire page from the Akallabeth(although this didn't make it into the final cut of the movies). I'm talking about the one on the top right.

12-22-2007, 04:10 AM	#6
zxcvbn Wight Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: In front of my PC Posts: 164	The 'possible court case' is over entire passages from books which New Line didn't have rights to appearing in the LOTR films. Here are more scrolls...in Tengwar. There's supposed to be a scroll depicting Akallabeth somewhere here, but I can't read Tengwar. It's a great pity most of this material never made into the final cut of the film.