Tolkien the freemason/ Priory of Sionist/Gnostic?

[Eönwë]

This might not so much be connected to the books, but I have a question and there must be someone who can answer. Was Tolkien a Priory of Sionist or at least a Freemason or maybe a gnostic? For example, Aragorn symbolises Christ in a way, but he gets married and has a child. Do you think there is any connection between the similar gnostic beliefs and Tolkien? Did he believe some of this stuff?

[davem]

Not knowing too much about the subject - its too long since I ventured into Holy Blood, Holy Grail territory, & while I've read some of the Gnostic Gospels I can't claim to be an expert on them - I have to say I was reminded of that recent graphic novel, 'Heaven's War' which depicted Tolkien, Lewis & Williams battling Aleister Crowley at the Priory of Sion to prevent the end of the world.

Mad as a bucket of frogs....

[McCaber]

No, Tolkien was a strong Catholic. It was a long talk with him that brought C.S. Lewis to be a Christian.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Pre-Vatican II, for a Catholic to join the Masons was to invite excommunication. Tolkien the hyperorthodox Newmanite would never have considered it.


Now, Charles Williams.....

[Aiwendil]

Pre-Vatican II, for a Catholic to join the Masons was to invite excommunication.

Tell that to Mozart.

Seriously, though, there's no evidence at all that Tolkien was associated with Freemasonry or interested in Gnosticism.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It was precisely because of the popularity and influence of Catholic Lodges in the 18th Century (and their links to the Enlightenment and revolution) that Church and State banned them. Reactionary governments- especially Austria's- outlawed Masonry in the wake of the French Revolution. Although encyclicals against the Masons go back as far as 1738, it was in the 1917 Code of Canon Law that the explicit penalty came into force.

Incidentally, I was mistaken. Pope Benedict has made clear that despite the 1983 liberalisation on Catholic membership in charitable societies (Elks, Kiwanis, Lions etc), the ban was *not* lifted with regard to Freemasons.

[Eönwë]

Well, he might not have believed some of this stuff, but he definitely knew of it. And also, Opus Dei is different to, for example, the Priory of Sion, and if we went along that path then you might be convinced that he bolnged to some other secret/semi-secret/shady society. But the gnostic symbolism is definitely undeniable. I mean, it shows that Aragorn (which some people compare to Jesus) is definitely (in the Lord of the rings) not celebate, I mean, he even had a son!

[Aiwendil]

But the gnostic symbolism is definitely undeniable. I mean, it shows that Aragorn (which some people compare to Jesus) is definitely (in the Lord of the rings) not celebate, I mean, he even had a son!

"Symbolism" of this kind was, however, repeatedly and convincingly denied by Tolkien. It also seems to me that even if one were to engage in the misguided game of looking for Christ-figures in LotR, the more natural choices would be Gandalf and, perhaps, Frodo.

[davem]

I suspect one could find all kinds of 'occult' resonances if one looked - but I don't think they were used in the way that is being implied by some. Tolkien stated that he wasn't a student of fairy stories, & that when he read them he sought in them raw material for his own creation. I suspect the same thing was going on here. I can't believe that when Williams, Lewis & Barfield got going at Inklings meetings such arcana wasn't discussed, but I suspect that if Tolkien picked anything up from such discussions it would have been odd images/ideas which he turned to his own uses.

[Aiwendil]

Regarding Williams: It is quite plausible that he would have talked with Tolkien & Lewis of his interest in the occult; and I don't doubt it would have kindled Lewis's interest - but not Tolkien's. Consider Tolkien's later comments on Williams:

I knew Charles Williams well in his last few years . . . But I do not think we influenced one another at all! Too 'set', and too different. We both listened (in C.S.L.'s rooms) to large and largely unintelligible fragments of one another's works read aloud; because C.S.L. (marvellous man) seemed able to enjoy us both. But I think we both found the other's mind (or rather mode of expression, and climate) as impenetrable when cast into 'literature', as we found the other's presence and convseration delightful. (Letter 159)

Later, he went as far as to name Williams as one of the causes of his drifting apart from Lewis (Letter 252); admitting that he (Tolkien) was 'a man of limited sympathies', he said that 'Williams lies almost completely outside them' and that he 'actively disliked his Arthurian-Byzantine mythology' and thought 'it spoiled the trilogy of C.S.L. (a very impressionable, too impressionable, man)' (Letter 259); and he claimed that, though they enjoyed jesting talk, they 'had nothing to say to one another at deeper (or higher) levels' (Letter 276).

I would be very, very surprised if Tolkien was ever influenced by any of Williams's (or anyone else's) interest in the occult. Beyond the quotes above, it just doesn't seem to me that such things would be compatible with Tolkien's basic (literary) outlook.

[davem]

And yet Tolkien was interested in 'occult' subjects - communication across time, telepathy & the nature of other dimensions - in particular Faery - & how they interact with our own. Clearly, these being subjects touched upon by all three Inklings in their fiction, & by Barfield the Anthroposophist, Tolkien would have been up for such discussions (cf the rather arcane subject matters under discussion in The Notion Club Papers).

Now, I know that Carpenter in particular tends to dismiss any notion of the Inklings having any influence on each other's writings, but in a recent study of the Inklings 'The Company They Keep', Diana Glyer explores this whole idea, & apparently (haven't read it, but know people who have) she reads things very differently. I think the case of the excised Epilogue to LotR speaks to a real influence & refutes the theory that Tolkien would have produced exactly what he did if he hadn't been part of the Inklings. Tolkien states that he had read or heard much of Williams' work & clearly Williams' work would have been discussed at Inklings meetings. So, its not a matter of Tolkien either being directly, or consciously, influenced by Williams (or Barfield), but of ideas being batted around, picked up, changed, interpreted & made to fit a writer's needs. We often look to Tolkien's Catholicism & his love of myth as sources for his writings but we can't completely dismiss the idea that he may have picked things up from Inklings' discussions. I just don't see Tolkien listening in to these discussions & refusing to take part, or making a mental note every time the conversation strayed onto such subjects & deciding 'Right - that's something I definitely will exclude in all its possible forms from my writings!' Its the very fact that he didn't believe such things that would make them usable as source material.

[Feanor411]

I've been doing a good spot of research on this--have wondered about it for awhile. There is a story that both Tolkien and CS Lewis were briefly members of the Order of the Golden Dawn, but were kicked out for being inept.

I don't think Tolkien was a Freemason--I'm sure he would have been aware of the Catholic Church's stance, and would have steered clear. However, we know that his work is liberally sprinkled with very old mythical motifs, many of which the Freemasons also used. Btw, one of the articles quoted previously stated that the 7 stars on the door to Moria represented the 7 rings held by the dwarves--it was actually representative of the original 7 dwarf lords. I am reluctant to accept the opinion of someone who clearly doesn't know the source material well.

There also seems to be a bit of a Fundamentalist slant to a lot of the material I've found--a definite attitude that "If he used the same symbols as the Freemasons, he must be one too." I think it's inevitable, the way Tolkien incorporated bits and pieces of old legends and myths, that he would end up using some of the same motifs and images that were used by other groups (such as Freemasons).

[Orofarne]

I don't think that Tolkien was a Freemason. They seem to snap up all the symbols they can get their hands on, and everything I've read says that Tolkien was a staunch Roman Catholic. But then again, so was Mozart. I do think, however, that Gnosticism and Catholicism are somewhat mutually exclusive. But was Opus Dei formed yet? And aren't we getting a little too Da Vinci Code here?


______________________
"Look my friends, here's a pretty hobbit skin to wrap an Elven princeling in!"

[garm]

"I've been doing a good spot of research on this--have wondered about it for awhile. There is a story that both Tolkien and CS Lewis were briefly members of the Order of the Golden Dawn, but were kicked out for being inept. "

Don't keep us in suspense - - where does this information come from?

As for the Priory of Sion - there was a TV programme on Channel 4 a few years ago, when the movie of Dan Brown's first book came out (blessed if I can remember the name now). The whole Priory of Sion thing was shown to be a hoax, perpetrated by some guys in France. It's all rubbish, really.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by garm

"I've been doing a good spot of research on this--have wondered about it for awhile. There is a story that both Tolkien and CS Lewis were briefly members of the Order of the Golden Dawn, but were kicked out for being inept. "

Don't keep us in suspense - - where does this information come from?

As for the Priory of Sion - there was a TV programme on Channel 4 a few years ago, when the movie of Dan Brown's first book came out (blessed if I can remember the name now). The whole Priory of Sion thing was shown to be a hoax, perpetrated by some guys in France. It's all rubbish, really.

Right. Thanks for pointing that out so that I didn't have to! The Prieuré de Sion or Priory of Sion was invented in the 1950s by a chap called Pierre Plantard who fabricated a nine hundred year history for his phony organisation.

The notion that both Tolkien and Lewis were members of the Order of the Golden Dawn seems a bit far-fetched. Lewis I can imagine might have been interested during his agnostic/aetheist phase, but Tolkien? Charles Williams, who was also a member of the Inklings, is really the most likely suspect.

On the other hand, Tolkien does seem to have considered some beliefs that seem to have been of a Gnostic nature. The basis of The Lost Road and The Notion Club Papers is the idea that ancient memories can be retrieved by modern people - in this case memories of Numenor. Tolkien himself seems to have believed that his own Middle Earth writings were in some way a recollection or reconstruction of actual events.

However, it is one thing to dabble in Pagan or Gnostic traditions in order to write a work of fantasy but it is quite another thing to practise such traditions in your day to day life! Tolkien was a practising Catholic and this would be quite incompatible with him actually being a Gnostic, a Witch, a Master of the Occult, a Satanist or whatever else he is being accused of.

Note that the accusation comes from people who believe that The Lord Of The Rings and the Chronicles of Narnia are occult books! An example of this sort of thing can be found here, if you can bear to read it:

http://www.tldm.org/News8/JRRTolkien...wis.Narnia.htm

Note that there is no actual proof, just suppositions and circular reasoning. Tolkien wrote many letters, a selection of which have been published, and there is nothing in them to indicate anything other than normal Catholic practise. The logic seems to be "Tolkien wrote an occult book (LOTR) and he spent a lot of time on it so therefore he was an occultist". The reasoning fails if you don't accept the initial premise, for which there is no proof.

Also the article I've linked to has numerous factual errors, such as:

"Tolkiens [sic] occult stories were first published in the 1950's. It is interesting to note that Tolkien took 12 years to write his occult stories and he released them in the 13th year. He was a true occultist and the devil was pleased and blessed his work!"

Although it did take Tolkien approximately 12 years to write The Lord of The Rings, it most certainly wasn't published in the "13th year"! It took about four years for the book to be published once it was completed. Besides, there is no significance to the timing since Tolkien had already published The Hobbit and had expended decades trying to bring The Silmarillion into a publishable form.

Also the claim (in that article) that "a Witch" revealed the information that Lewis and Tolkien were members of the Golden Dawn is hard to believe. Where did this Witch obtain the information? The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn was disbanded in 1970 and all of the members are probably dead - so how could anyone now have detailed credible knowledge of such a secret society?

Incidentally, the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn was an offshoot of the Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia, which most certainly does still exist and even has a website:

http://sria.info/index.php?option=co...=42&Itemid=238

The notion that such groups (related to Freemasonry) engage in occult activities is largely held by the kinds of Christians who believe that every word of the Bible is literally true, and that it contains all the knowledge that you actually need. Such people are dedicated to attacking any work of fiction with spiritual themes that has a large following.

[Eönwë]

In my defence, I was only 13 and had just read the Da Vinci Code when I made this thread...

That being said, it's probably not unlikely that Tolkien at least considered some Gnostic beliefs while writing his mythology- whether or not they manifested themselves in some way, I'm not sure.