Saruman and Caradhras - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Meriadoc1961 · 12-04-2007, 10:51 AM

Okay, I have given some praise recently to the movie, so I believe I am entitled to some criticism now!

But I find it very poor for Jackson to have portrayed Saruman as being gleeful that Gandalf and the ring were going to Moria. Saruman wanted the ring for himself, so to portray him as working to ensure that the ring passes through Moria where Saruman, according to the movie, knew a Balrog of Morgoth was lurking and residing, makes no sense whatsoever. Are we supposed to believe that this Balrog would just hand over the ring to Saruman? Saruman SHOULD have been doing everything in his power to PREVENT the ring from falling into the hands of the Balrog! And yet in the movie, he is portrayed as being the source of the blizzard that drives the company to seek Moria.

The book's version of events were much better than the movie, and they made much more sense. Until they see the Balrog face to face in the book, no one knew WHAT the source of evil was that ruled under Caradhras. No one knew for sure WHAT Durin's bane was. In fact, I believe the book says something like this:

"The Dwarves delved too deeply and awoke the Nameless Fear."

Merry

Legate of Amon Lanc · 12-04-2007, 11:00 AM

And I could add one thing quite many people misinterpretate from the moment the films come out; Saruman was NOT the one who sent the avalanche.

I guess the main problem was that in the films, Saruman did not want the Ring for himself in the first place, but he served Sauron. Thus, by sending Gandalf to Moria, he only brought the Fellowship to more trouble. In fact, even this doesn't make sense because had he been a servant of Sauron, he would have told Sauron about the Fellowship entering Moria and Sauron himself will see to it that some Nazgul stand in front of the East Gate in case someone gets out. But given the logic of the films, even Balrog could have been a servant of Sauron, or at least, he was definitely a "bad guy" and this was the main point.

I would say the best way of interpretation would be to say that blocking Caradhras from Saruman's part was either a way of getting rid of Gandalf as the dangerous figure of the good side (Saruman presuming that the Balrog would finish him) or we can interpretate Saruman's words "And what then, Gandalf? What if the mountain defeats you? Will you dare to..." as if he thought that Gandalf probably would NOT dare to enter Moria, and this would mean taking the remaining path: near Isengard.

Galendor · 12-04-2007, 10:58 PM

According to the movie - did Saruman know the Fellowship carried the Ring when he gleefully tried to direct them into Moria? Or did he just oppose their progress because he saw them as "good guys", and mainly just wanted to put Gandalf in harms way?

Meriadoc1961 · 12-05-2007, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galendor

According to the movie - did Saruman know the Fellowship carried the Ring when he gleefully tried to direct them into Moria? Or did he just oppose their progress because he saw them as "good guys", and mainly just wanted to put Gandalf in harms way?

I would have to conclude that yes, he did know, and this is why he sent the Uruk-Hai out to capture hobbits ALIVE for one carried something useful for the war. "Kill the others!"

Merry

Meriadoc1961 · 12-05-2007, 07:49 AM

"And I could add one thing quite many people misinterpretate from the moment the films come out; Saruman was NOT the one who sent the avalanche."

How is this misinterpreted when the film shows Saruman in his tower and the storm originating from Orthanc and focusing on Caradhras; Legolas says there is a fell voice in the air, Saruman; Aragorn yells, "He is trying to bring down the mountain"; Boromir screams, "This will be the death of the Halflings!"; Gandalf and Saruman engage in some spells/counter spells; a lightning bolt strikes the top of the mountain, and the fellowship is buried under snow. So what is the correct interpretation if we are not to conclude that Saruman is causing this havoc?

Merry

Nerwen · 12-05-2007, 09:14 AM

Meriadoc, I think Legate just means Saruman didn't send the avalanche in the book.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 12-05-2007, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Meriadoc, I think Legate just means Saruman didn't send the avalanche in the book.

Just to make it clear that this interpretation of my words is correct, yes, that's what I meant.

Meriadoc1961 · 12-05-2007, 10:42 AM

I see that quite clearly now. Thank you both for the clarification. I apologize for not seeing it correctly in the first place.

Cordially,

Merry

alatar · 12-05-2007, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I would say the best way of interpretation would be to say that blocking Caradhras from Saruman's part was either a way of getting rid of Gandalf as the dangerous figure of the good side (Saruman presuming that the Balrog would finish him) or we can interpretate Saruman's words "And what then, Gandalf? What if the mountain defeats you? Will you dare to..." as if he thought that Gandalf probably would NOT dare to enter Moria, and this would mean taking the remaining path: near Isengard.

The whole plan was thwarted by the Watcher in the Lake. It was supposed to scare the Fellowship away from the doors, not into the Mines. The mere threat of the Balrog should have been enough to keep Gandalf from attempting the Dark Road after the path across Caradhras was closed. This would have brought the Ring down south past Isengard. Rewatch the scene where all of Saruman's birds appear and note that Gandalf, recently a captive of the White Wizard, suggests that the Ring make for the Gap of Rohan. Gimli suggests Moria, but they attempt the snow first.

The Watcher, smashing the doors, entombs the Fellowship in Moria

. A bit overdone, but this may have been due to it being upset, having missed Bill the Pony. With the Ring now trapped in Moria, Saruman would have to go all the way around to claim his prize if another didn't beat him to it.

Unless, that is, the Watcher worked for Sauron, and Balrog was to deliver the Ring to Mordor, and Sauron would then have sent a 'Thank you' to Saruman for driving the Fellowship into the Black Pit.

It's all so...ah...clear.

Meriadoc1961 · 12-07-2007, 10:30 AM

Even in the book the Watcher in the Lake seemed to be working for Sauron, for Gandalf kept his thoughts to himself (I believe it was Gandalf - I am doing this from memory) that out of all the company it was Frodo it attempted to capture. Just Tolkien writing this makes me believe that the Watcher was guided or under orders from Sauron.

Merry

Legate of Amon Lanc · 12-07-2007, 10:42 AM

In the book it could be interpretated that way. But I always thought of it as if that it was some sort of "sixth sense move" from the Watcher, and that it didn't have anything to do with Sauron. Though your interpretation is equally possible (as we know Sauron stirred all evil creatures around that he found. I'd like to call the Watcher an opposite of Gwaihir, as Gwaihir was likewise summoned by Radagast).

William Cloud Hicklin · 12-07-2007, 05:52 PM

Yes, Legate: in The Disaster of the Gladden Fields it's said that the Orcs were 'drawn' by the Ring, even though they hadn't the slightest notion that it was there - it was just some sort of Evil Minion Magnet.

12-04-2007, 10:51 AM	#1
Meriadoc1961 Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 101	Saruman and Caradhras Okay, I have given some praise recently to the movie, so I believe I am entitled to some criticism now! But I find it very poor for Jackson to have portrayed Saruman as being gleeful that Gandalf *and the ring* were going to Moria. Saruman wanted the ring for himself, so to portray him as working to ensure that the ring passes through Moria where Saruman, according to the movie, knew a Balrog of Morgoth was lurking and residing, makes no sense whatsoever. Are we supposed to believe that this Balrog would just hand over the ring to Saruman? Saruman SHOULD have been doing everything in his power to PREVENT the ring from falling into the hands of the Balrog! And yet in the movie, he is portrayed as being the source of the blizzard that drives the company to seek Moria. The book's version of events were much better than the movie, and they made much more sense. Until they see the Balrog face to face in the book, no one knew WHAT the source of evil was that ruled under Caradhras. No one knew for sure WHAT Durin's bane was. In fact, I believe the book says something like this: "The Dwarves delved too deeply and awoke the Nameless Fear." Merry __________________ "If I yawn again, I shall split at the ears!"

12-04-2007, 11:00 AM	#2
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	And I could add one thing quite many people misinterpretate from the moment the films come out; Saruman was NOT the one who sent the avalanche. I guess the main problem was that in the films, Saruman did not want the Ring for himself in the first place, but he served Sauron. Thus, by sending Gandalf to Moria, he only brought the Fellowship to more trouble. In fact, even this doesn't make sense because had he been a servant of Sauron, he would have told Sauron about the Fellowship entering Moria and Sauron himself will see to it that some Nazgul stand in front of the East Gate in case someone gets out. But given the logic of the films, even Balrog could have been a servant of Sauron, or at least, he was definitely a "bad guy" and this was the main point. I would say the best way of interpretation would be to say that blocking Caradhras from Saruman's part was either a way of getting rid of Gandalf as the dangerous figure of the good side (Saruman presuming that the Balrog would finish him) or we can interpretate Saruman's words "And what then, Gandalf? What if the mountain defeats you? Will you dare to..." as if he thought that Gandalf probably would NOT dare to enter Moria, and this would mean taking the remaining path: near Isengard. __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

12-04-2007, 10:58 PM	#3
Galendor Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Mirkwood, NC Posts: 66	According to the movie - did Saruman know the Fellowship carried the Ring when he gleefully tried to direct them into Moria? Or did he just oppose their progress because he saw them as "good guys", and mainly just wanted to put Gandalf in harms way? __________________ Time is the mind, the hand that makes (fingers on harpstrings, hero-swords, the acts, the eyes of queens).

12-05-2007, 07:49 AM	#5
Meriadoc1961 Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 101	"And I could add one thing quite many people misinterpretate from the moment the films come out; Saruman was NOT the one who sent the avalanche." How is this misinterpreted when the film shows Saruman in his tower and the storm originating from Orthanc and focusing on Caradhras; Legolas says there is a fell voice in the air, Saruman; Aragorn yells, "He is trying to bring down the mountain"; Boromir screams, "This will be the death of the Halflings!"; Gandalf and Saruman engage in some spells/counter spells; a lightning bolt strikes the top of the mountain, and the fellowship is buried under snow. So what is the correct interpretation if we are not to conclude that Saruman is causing this havoc? Merry __________________ "If I yawn again, I shall split at the ears!"

12-05-2007, 10:42 AM	#8
Meriadoc1961 Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 101	I see that quite clearly now. Thank you both for the clarification. I apologize for not seeing it correctly in the first place. Cordially, Merry __________________ "If I yawn again, I shall split at the ears!"

12-05-2007, 09:14 AM	#6
Nerwen Wisest of the Noldor Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ Posts: 6,694	Meriadoc, I think Legate just means Saruman didn't send the avalanche in the book.

12-07-2007, 10:30 AM	#10
Meriadoc1961 Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 101	Even in the book the Watcher in the Lake seemed to be working for Sauron, for Gandalf kept his thoughts to himself (I believe it was Gandalf - I am doing this from memory) that out of all the company it was Frodo it attempted to capture. Just Tolkien writing this makes me believe that the Watcher was guided or under orders from Sauron. Merry __________________ "If I yawn again, I shall split at the ears!"

12-07-2007, 10:42 AM	#11
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	In the book it could be interpretated that way. But I always thought of it as if that it was some sort of "sixth sense move" from the Watcher, and that it didn't have anything to do with Sauron. Though your interpretation is equally possible (as we know Sauron stirred all evil creatures around that he found. I'd like to call the Watcher an opposite of Gwaihir, as Gwaihir was likewise summoned by Radagast). __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

12-07-2007, 05:52 PM	#12
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,322	Yes, Legate: in The Disaster of the Gladden Fields it's said that the Orcs were 'drawn' by the Ring, even though they hadn't the slightest notion that it was there - it was just some sort of Evil Minion Magnet. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.