Greatest Man of Middle-Earth??

[Mattius]

Okay, I know there has been a topic like this regarding elves and I would have prefered to have who is the greatest dwarf topic but they do not feature as heavily in the stories as Men do. So I ask you, who was the greatest man. A few spring to my mind; Aragorn, Tuor, Isildur? I think I will go for Turin though, despite that nasty little business with his sister. He has been my favourite, possibly because he is so damn cursed. Sympathy and awe, he was so tall and mighty looking he was often mistaken for an elf, or I think he was, haven't read the Silm. for a while. But he did kill a Dragon so there you go. Plus his dad was hard too.

[Legolas]

Húrin. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

Beren had great potential, but only utilized it in his quest for...well...guess.

This matter actually was discussed here.

[ November 21, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Galorme]

Tuor was counted as an elf I believe. Does that mean he was not a man? How about Agmar? He was the most powerful man i believe. Beren, if only because i would love to be like him. He is so brave and carefree, "Go invade angband" "k". To be able to just decide things like that, and the way they always work out. I think Beren was just lucky, thats why he always won. I mean his luck (or fate whatever) was stronger than Death, which was a gift from Eru. So his fate can contest with the will of Eru.

Ah theres an interesting question. Fate definatly plays a part in Arda. Was Fate controled by Eru, or was it an a priori power that was there before him? Is Eru subject to fate?

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Fate in Arda, I think, involves the powers of Light and Dark and such. I believe that Eru is fate.

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

Beren:

1. Married the greatest of the Children of Illuvatar, Luthien Tinuviel.
2. Traveled Dungortheb by paths not dared by any other Man or Elf.
3. Could not be barred by the Girdle of Melian.
4. Faced Morgoth and stole a Silmaril (with help of course).
5. Only Man to go to the Halls of Mandos and come back.

[ November 21, 2002: Message edited by: Keneldil the Polka-dot ]

[WarBringer]

Isildur-By cutting the ring from saurons hand, he eventually ended his reign of terror

[Kuruharan]

Only Man to go to the Halls of Mandos and come back.

I don't see what this has to do with it. He had no say in the matter. That was because of Luthien.

This is going to be a first but I agree with Legolas. Húrin's the Man.

Faced Morgoth and stole a Silmaril (with help of course).

Actually, Beren did not exactly "face" Morgoth. Slunk underneath the throne is more like it.

Húrin not only faced Morgoth, he defied Morgoth to his face for a couple of years. (That's years mind you.) And he was utterly powerless to do anything about it and he still refused to break.

Compared to that the other of his numerable feats of arms, including but not limited to fighting alone against an army, breaking the siege of Eithel Sirion, etc..., all seem rather puny.

As the only Man who ever personally faced and defied The Great Enemy of the World, I don't understand how anyone could make any other nominations.

[Orald]

I would like to believe Hurin was, but he seems to be all too similar to Fingolfin in relation to what he is good at. Beren is more parallel to Luthien, and he rightfully deserves it. As do many, but just like in real life, not everyone gets what the deserve.

[burrahobbit]

A couple, Kuruharan? More like a couple dozen!

Hurin was hard core.

[Legolas]

Galorme - who is this Agmar you speak of?

WarBringer - Isildur cut the Great Ring from the hand of a dead Sauron. Elendil and Gil-galad defeated Sauron, and in doing so, were slain themselves. The dirty work was already done for Isildur. The movie portrayal is inaccurate.

what about beorn, can change shape n was abel to tourn around the whole battle of five armies

other. turin, hurin and aragorn

[Rimbaud]

Hurin gets my vote.

[Atariel]

It was totally Aragorn, or Beren. no doubt about it. and have you READ the last page of the Aragron-Arwen appendice? his speech is SOOOOO beautiful. i cry every time i read it.

[Legolas]

The end of the Third Age and beginning of the Fourth saw men that weren't on the level of those in the First or Second Ages. Aragorn stood out simply because he was one of the last reflections of those great men of FA/SA. His circumstances were different - he had more chance to shine. When placed in an earlier period, I'm sure he still would've proved successful, but without so much surrounding glory.

[Kuruharan]

Durelen:

but he seems to be all too similar to Fingolfin in relation to what he is good at.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Do you mean that all Húrin was good at was fighting and such, while Beren aspired to a higher plane? Is that close to what you mean?

Atariel:

and have you READ the last page of the Aragron-Arwen appendice? his speech is SOOOOO beautiful. i cry every time i read it.

No doubt. However, aside from what Legolas has already capably stated, his ability to make beautiful speeches is not the issue. The issue is the greatness of their souls. While nobody doubts that Aragorn was a fantastic and splendid guy, he did not personally face The Great Enemy of the World, or hopelessly defy said Great Enemy of the World for years (remember Morgoth prevented Húrin from dying so there was no escape for him at all!)

With all due respect to Aragorn, when compared to Húrin he falls far short, despite his ability to move everyone to tears with his eloquence.

[ November 22, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[Galorme]

Agmar (is that spelt right?) was the leader of the Nazgul. Well actually he wasn't, as it wasn't a he, it was a place. But he ruled there, and was known as the Witch Kind of Agmar (have i spelt that right????). So yeah i say that because he had a lot of power. It might not have been "his" technically, but he weilded it, and it made him powerful. I still say Beren, as he was just wonderful in every way.

[the mortal elf]

Does Beorn actually count as a man? If he does, my vote goes to him. I would say Hurin or Beren, but all (or most) of the men in the Sil just seemed...so corrupt as compared to the elves. I know that's unfair because elves are immortal, but that's just the way I picture it. Beorn at least doesn't have such high standards to live up to, so he doesn't have to be perfect to be a great man (that is, if he counts as one, being part bear...) [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

Actually, Beren did not exactly "face" Morgoth. Slunk underneath the throne is more like it.

And then cut a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown after Luthien sung him to sleep. You did note that I said with help? Beren (and Luthien) accomplished what the Noldor with all of their armies could not. One thing I forgot for my list before- Beren reclaimed a Silmaril twice: once from Morgoth, and once from the Dwarves of Novgorod after they murdered Thingol and stole it with the Nauglamir.

The fact that Luthien got Beren out of the Halls doesn't change the fact that he went and came back.

I do see the case for Hurin as well though. For single acts of heroism amongst Men, defying Morgoth to his face for years has tp be the top. Let's not forget, however, that Hurin was the one who led Morgoth to the location of Gondolin.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Candidates in alphabetical order are:

Aragorn
Beren
Earendil
Elendil
Elros
Hurin
Tuor
Turin

Some might question Turin, but despite his doom and mistakes, he was truly a great leader, and in many respects combined the best of Hurin, Tuor and Beren. It's clear that despite everything, the Elves consider him among the very greatest of the Elf-friends, which would include Hador, too, based on Elrond's ending speech at the Council in praise of Frodo. And lets not forget Barahir and Beor.

If one consider all of the diverse aspects of Beren's stories, he is truly special, and perhaps the noblest and most admirable of the ancient Elf-friends.

Hurin is clearly the greatest warrior of all time, and his selfless act will forever stand amoung the greatest of deeds.

Earendil and Elros might be disqualified for being too Half-Elven as it were, but they are counted among Men, and were certainaly tremendous personages, perhaps, unrivaled among any other mortal man.

Tuor was a pureborn Man, even if as is suggested, he was given the life of an Elf to live with Idril in enternity somewhere/somehow, which is probably perfectly unique among all mortals, including the ringbearers. He is perhaps the tallest, maybe second only to Thingol and Turgon among all the Children of Iluvatar. But he in many ways is the model for the future Numenoreans, and clearly the most special and perfect of all Men in Tolkien's depiction. In some ways the Anti-Turin, but then again Fate was clearly kinder to Tuor.

Elendil is in many ways the return of Tuor, probably as tall, and as able to win the loves of both kindred. Clearly, in Elrond's eyes, he was incredible as a leader and King.

Finally, I vote for Aragorn, as the culmination of his ancestors, and the ultimate vindicator of all of their successess and shortcomings. His Wisdom shows that so much was learned, and he clearly walks in the shoes of Elendil, Elros, Earendil, Tuor, Turin and Beren.

[Kuruharan]

One small note before we get started.

Dwarves of Novgorod

Novgorod is an ancient and culturally significant city located in northern Russia.

Nogrod, on the other hand, was the citadel in the Blue Mountains of the Firebeard Dwarves. Its real name was Tumunzahar.

There's a small difference between the two cities.

And then cut a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown after Luthien sung him to sleep.

Let me re-emphasize, after Luthien sung him to sleep. She did all the hard work of beating the Will of Morgoth, while Beren cowered before the throne. While it undoubtedly required great strength of character to approach even the unconscious form of Morgoth and cut the Silmaril, it simply does not bear comparison to Hurin's ordeal. I'm sorry, but that's just the truth of it.

One thing I forgot for my list before- Beren reclaimed a Silmaril twice: once from Morgoth, and once from the Dwarves of Novgorod (Nogrod) after they murdered Thingol and stole it with the Nauglamir.

And recovered it from the Great Wolf Carcharoth. I hate to say this about something as grand as these feats, but color me unimpressed. He was not alone when he went to Angband. He had the aid of the greatest child of Iluvatar (who as I said earlier actually did most of the dirty work from the time she rescued him from Sauron down to the very end). And they had a goal that they could accomplish, obtaining a Silmaril, even though that goal looked absurd.

Hurin was alone with Morgoth (Great Enemy of the World, you remember him). Faced the greatest primordial spirit ever created, eye to eye (no small feat), and basically spat in Morgoth's eye. Hurin had no goal but resistance to the Will of Morgoth, for all that Hurin knew, for the rest of Time. A MUCH more difficult task than anything Beren and Luthien ever faced. (Well maybe with the exception of Luthien facing Mandos since she was actually challenging the Will of Iluvatar, but that had nothing to do with Beren. More on that later.)

About taking the Nauglamir (why is it that when Beren takes the Nauglamir by force its "taking" but when the Dwarves of Nogord, who actually made the blasted thing, take the Nauglamir by force it's called "stealing?") Anyway, as much as I hate to admit it, it does not require extraordinary and spectacular courage to fight a battle against one of the normal races (Dwarves, Men, Elves, Orcs...) of Middle Earth. Not to say that it does not require courage, but literally thousands and thousands of people in the stories displayed the same type of courage. It does not show that Beren had and unusually large amount of it. Especially since Beren was being helped by walking trees, and those stuck-up, pointy-eared, tree-huggin' twits, uh-I mean Elves. So while this incident clearly showed that Beren was a murderous barbarian who needed to learn respect for his betters, it does not particularly show the greatness of his soul.

(Notice how this guy can't ever seem to do anything alone, while Hurin's claim to fame is his enduring while alone.)

The fact that Luthien got Beren out of the Halls doesn't change the fact that he went and came back.

No, but it changes any claim that may be made for him that the alleged greatness of his spirit was the reason why he got out.

Luthien was obviously the best thing that happened to Beren. What she got out of this deal I haven't quite figured out yet.

Let's not forget, however, that Hurin was the one who led Morgoth to the location of Gondolin.

Not totally. And not of his own free will.

Finally, I vote for Aragorn, as the culmination of his ancestors, and the ultimate vindicator of all of their successess and shortcomings. His Wisdom shows that so much was learned, and he clearly walks in the shoes of Elendil, Elros, Earendil, Tuor, Turin and Beren.

*Sigh* So many to convert, so little time.

As I have said a few times before, Greatest of all the Ainur vs. puny little mortal Hurin for years upon years, and Hurin did not give in. What exactly did Aragorn do? He went gallivanting about the countryside with Hobbits. His leadership of the Fellowship after Gandalf fell, er...(how to put this delicately) did not go so well. He then went charging across country with an Elf and a Dwarf chasing after Hobbits. He fought quite well at the Battle of Helm's Deep. Stove with Sauron's spirit, (no small feat). Had the brilliant strategic idea to halt the Enemy's fleet to prevent reinforcement. Had the even more brilliant tactical idea to use dead guys to scare the crap out of the Enemy's troops (using the Enemy's own power-troop type against him, if only Aragorn had kept them around longer.) Rescued Minas Tirith. Fought glorious Battle of Morannon. Was a Great King for a good long time. Obviously this was a wonderful guy.

However, the only thing that come close to Hurin is the struggle with Sauron. This was a spiritual struggle against a Sauron that was considerably weakened from his prime. Facing some enemy physically is much worse than just spiritually. When faced with a being like Morgoth or Sauron, then you have to face their spirit and their massive physical might at the same time. Hurin physically faced a Morgoth, who admittedly was not what he once was, but was still more than overwhelming in his majesty and terror. Hurin was a helpless prisoner. Hurin was not even going to have death as a means of escape from his torment. Hurin gave Morgoth a verbal spit in the eye.

If the category is the power of their spirit, their "greatness of soul" I still feel that the obvious choice to make is Hurin.

My complements though! I haven't enjoyed a Tolkien debate this much in months!
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ November 23, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[Mhoram]

Man, you hit the nail on the head Kuruharan. Absolutely. I was thinking pretty much all of that before I read your post, thanks for typing it up for me.

Clearly, Beren is way overrated.

[Legolas]

For those of you who missed this part of the story, Eärendil was half-elven, and chose to share the elves' fate.

[the phantom]

Hurin is either #1 or #2 on my list. My other possibility is his son Turin.
Turin lived his entire adult life under the curse of the greatest being on earth, and also got on the bad side of the father of dragons. I think it's amazing what he accomplished despite being screwed from the very start.
First, he made a name for himself on the northern marches of Doriath, being named with Beleg as the greatest of Doriath's warriors.
Then he went into the wild and took over a band of men and did more harm to Morgoth's armies, once again making his territory feared by enemies.
After that he went to Nargothrond, and even though Orodreth was "in charge" it was clear from the books that Turin was basically ordering things the way he wanted. And I believe that is extremely telling, the fact that he rose to the absolute top of a powerful elvish kingdom, where there were great elf lords in abundance. He rose above even them. And once again, he did some serious damage to Morgoth while there.
After a run in with Glaurung, during which he showed no fear, he went on to Brethil and quickly established himself as the top dog there, and once again knocked Morgoth's forces around. And this was where he accomplished perhaps his greatest feat by slaying Glaurung.
Then finally, after having his eyes opened by Mablung, he basically realized that he was a plague everywhere he went because of Morgoth's curse, so he decided he would do no further harm and take his fate into his own hands, whereupon he took his life.
Considering how tragic his life was, losing his first sister, being seperated from his father, then being seperated from his mother, being wrongfully accused in Doriath, accidentally killing his best friend Beleg, losing Finduilas, and finally marrying his sister, I think what Turin still managed to do was amazing. I would've snapped under those same circumstances. I think if he would've been given a better chance, such as being born before his lands and people in Dor-lomin fell, he would've become the greatest lord of men ever known.
I also think it's interesting that in early writings of The Last Battle (at the end of the world), Tolkien said that it would be Turin with his black sword that would deal Melkor his death blow, and called Turin the conqueror of fate, and named him among the Gods. Apparantly, Tolkien thought he was pretty special.
Forgive my long post, but I just love the tragic hero that tries his best to rise above his human flaws and less than perfect circumstances.
Like father, like son. Hurin and Turin are on top of my list.

[Mhoram]

Isildur cut the Great Ring from the hand of a dead Sauron.

I just want to clairify, I think my good friend Legalos here misspoke. Sauron wasn't really dead persay, defeated was the word used by Tolkien. I don't think we know if Sauron was concious or not, infact he may have already 'forsaken' his body, gone off into spirit form.

[Legolas]

Indeed - his physical incarnation had passed in the same manner that Gandalf's body had when he passed from exhaustion after the duel with Durin's Bane.

[Afrodal Fenyar]

There are actually only two possibilities, Húrin Thalion and Túrin Turambar. Nothing done by Aragorn is anything compared to them.

Beren of course stole the Silmaril from the Crown of Morgoth, but actually it was all done by Lúthien. Beren done almost nothing, except got caught up by Sauron.

Húrin was a great warrior. Remember his deeds when he defended Turgon. When everybody else were slain, he still fought and believed that Morgoth will face his end. Even though the Orcs would have been trying to kill him, I don't think they could have done that much sooner. I think that Gothmog would have met his end much sooner, if fought with Húrin.

And after taken to Angband, he defied Morgoth for 28 years, spat on his face, and I think would have lasted even longer, if would not have been released. As somebody said, there was no escape for Húrin, for he couldn't move or even die, so it was an eternal doom. But I think Húrin would have given up anyways. He defied the Greatest of the Beings of Arda. It was no small deed.

I don't think that many elf could have done better.

Túrin was the second choise. But unlike his father he really feared Morgoth and his doom, and instead of facing his destiny he ran from it. Anyways he did great job in killing Glaurung, though like a thief, without even giving Glaurung a chance. Húrin would have faced Glaurung on open. That would probably have been his doom, though. But the destiny of Túrin - to slay Morgoth in Dagor Dagorath was great, and gives him more points.

But still I must say that it's Húrin Thalion. The Greatest of the Warriors of Men, and I think, also the Greatest of Men.

[Kuruharan]

I also think it's interesting that in early writings of The Last Battle (at the end of the world), Tolkien said that it would be Turin with his black sword that would deal Melkor his death blow, and called Turin the conqueror of fate, and named him among the Gods. Apparently, Tolkien thought he was pretty special.

Agreed. However, I believe that Tolkien ultimately discarded that notion. Although I'm not sure that he ever really replaced it with anything. I think that he left the events of The End rather up in the air.

However, I still have to go with the father over the son. Certainly Turin lived a rough life. Even if Tolkien discarded the notion that Turin killed Morgoth in The End, Turin was clearly an important figure possessed of great strength of spirit.

Alas, he didn't use it very well. He was emotionally volatile, prone to wild outbursts, and rash actions.

Hurin was more, well, steadfast.

And there's that nagging issue about actual physical presence of The Greatest Enemy in the History of the World and so forth. For me that takes the cake!

Absolutely. I was thinking pretty much all of that before I read your post, thanks for typing it up for me.

I live to keep others from getting carpal-tunnel syndrome! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Beren87]

To bring this up from absolutly nowhere because it's very late, I found these words in HOME 4.

Yet Thingol would not take the hoard and long he bore with Húrin, but Húrun scorned him, and wandered forth in search of Morwen his wife, but it is not said that he found her ever upon the earth; and some have said that he cast himself as last into the western sea, and so ended the mightiest of the warriors of mortal Men.

Thats says he was the greatest of all warriors. I'm not sure if that would qualify him for greatest period, but it does make a point.

However, Turin is prophicised by Mandos to stand next to Tulkas in the last battle and strike the blow of death against Morgoth. That might be just the revenge of the line of Húrin against Morgoth however. But Húrin could just as easily stand beside Tulkas.

[Maédhros]

Húrin is the man. After what he did in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, and defying Morgoth the way he did, he has no rival. (Maybe his son Túrin). But Beren cannot be compared to him.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

I certainly appreciate the strong cases for Húrin and Túrin. Clearly, Tolkien and the Elves recognize them as Great, and lets not forget Faramir's reverence for Húrin more than 6,000 years later.

I also like the points about Isíldur. What he did in Númenor in saving the scion of the Tree, with the Men of Dunharrow, and reaching Elendil in the North are all tremendous, and in contrast to the Film (which does give a defensible portrayal), I see the cutting off of the One Ring to be much less inadvertent, but rather an assertive act, even if Gil-Galad and Elendil had already landed blows. Actually, I've always seen Elendil has having already cut Sauron down, which seems rather unparalleled. As for Isíldur, however, his subsequent failure was so profound that it seems to knock him out of the running, although he is redeemed by his contrition and humility, as shown at the Gladden Fields.

Still, I must say that Beren and Aragorn get a bum rap above. Also, though Eárendil chose the life of the Elves, it was only at Elwing's behest. He felt closest to Men, and seems to have been more like one, before making his choice. So, I count him and Elros as Men. But first let me bring some perspective to Húrin and Túrin.

Húrin showed great wisdom, being more patient than many Elves. Arguably, Gwindor's rashness is the beginning of the problem that day, as much as the Easterling's treachery. Ironically, Gwindor later criticizes the rashness of Húrin's son. Without argument, Húrin is the greatest Warrior, but is the greatest Warrior necessarily the greatest Man?

His courage in front of something like Morgoth is awesome, but I'm sure that like Beren he was afraid. And who's to say that Beren in the same situation wouldn't have been as steadfast. Wisely, Beren was trying to be undiscovered. So, cowering seems quite excusable. Had he no place to hide like Húrin, who can say how he would have done. Húrin finally fell under a spell easily broken by Melian. While again understandable, it remains lamentable that he could not see lies for lies, and was so quick in his pride to assume that the Morgoth's enemies had not actually aided his family at every turn.

Turning now to Túrin, it is rewarding to see others not dismiss this tragic figure, whom Tolkien wisely interprets as incredibly valiant. Although he had opportunities to break from his fate, it was an incomparable burden, under which he could have shown far less nobility than he did. Ironically, though about the Elves, the Silmarillion often comes across casting Men to be better leaders. Nevertheless, Túrin did have chances to not be so rash, not so easily beguiled, and not so prideful; it was not entirely Morgoth’s curse that causes his character flaws, but as with Boromir, who is much like Túrin, he is clearly redeemed in the end, not necessarily by suicide itself, but there I think the morale is that though normally wrong, it is at that point for Túrin an Act of holy catharsis.

Now, we turn to Beren, who is somehow less of a Man because he turns to others for help, because he lets Lúthien do great things, because he listens and trust in others and does not always put his pride first! My, my, my … we seem to be putting old Beren down for rather “Macho” reasons. I don't see why it is necessarily better to go it alone like Túrin or Clint Eastwood!

I agree that Beren's Leadership at the Battle of Sarn Asthad was not necessarily a super great moment, and it is not treated as such in the books. His forces had the element of surprise, and may have been evenly matched with the Dwarves, who may have had a claim to what they stole, but not to the extent that simply attacking Thingol and later Doriath was any way justified, whereas Beren’s attack was. Still, the Green-Elves were not the most formidable of fighting forces, despite the colors of their Berets.

But lets look at a selective list of Beren's accomplishments, which to his credit go far beyond one fine day of axe swinging, and were not all by use of Arms, but entailed matters of character:

1, His deeds among Barahir's companions

2, His rescuing of the Ring of Felagund

3, His deeds as a solitary outlaw

4, His unrivaled traverse over Ered Gorgoroth, through Dungortheb and into Doriath

5, His tireless pursuit of Lúthien

6, His wooing of Lúthien

7, His nobility in front of Thingol

8, His persuasion of Finrod and others to his aid

9, His saving of Lúthien from two sons of Féanor (Leap of Beren)

10, His attempt to go to Angband alone, but willingness to accept Lúthien’s power

11, His unwillingness to give up the quest, because of his and Lúthien's honor

12, His secreting into the pits the Hell

13, Protecting Lúthien from Carcharoth

14, Surviving and returning to Thingol and gaining his blessing

15, The final hunt and saving of Thingol's life.

16, Tarrying in the Halls of Mandos

17, Living a life of peace, in obedience to the Valar, thereafter and siring the first of the great lineage.

Now, there's poor Aragorn who has become a mere baby-sitter of Hobbits, and for which a few moments of indecision in leading the Fellowship are a major problem.

Lets consider how over his long life he not only redeemed his own few failings, but redeemed all the race of Men and the failings of his ancestors through Arnor, Isíldur, the Kings of Númenor and even the tragic Édain like Túrin.

Or, don't forget that he acted prudently but bravely his whole life, resisted the lure of the Ring, was steadfast in his pursuit of the Evil Powers, escaped their attempts to capture him, wooed one nearly as lofty as Lúthien, gave her the Ring of Felagund, acquired the great Elfstone, and through to his dying day exhibited wisdom and humility.

For seventy some years prior to meeting Frodo, he had become the greatest Hero of that Age of Men, traversing the world and foiling works of the enemy. Think if he had not destroyed the forces at Umbar in the raid he led under Denethor's father. If not for that, the forces of Umbar would have been much stronger by the time of War of the Rings. They could have overwhelmed Gondor's coastal navies, and launched a real expeditionary force. As it were, they could only break up the Lower Anduin and engage in a blocking maneuver. (Southern Gondor was not really under threat ruin from them directly, but only unable to aid Minas Tirith sufficiently, because of this diversionary tactic which Aragorn brilliantly countered) And through all that, he found time to be the Chieftain of the Dunédain of the North, which provided selfless and indispensable security to the Shire and other places.

Now, lets look at what he did during the War of the Rings, before becoming the first King of the Fourth Age, and a Lord of all Free Peoples for more than a hundred years, in which he delivered peace and prosperity, and saw to the destruction of Sauron’s military legacy. Túrin and Húrin may not have had such an opportunity, or Elendil for that matter, but I think Aragorn was more than just lucky.

1.He protected four still naïve Hobbits from the Nazgûl, fought them directly, and cured others such as Faramir affected by the Evil Breath

2.Brought back and renamed the Sword that was Broken.

3.Always saw the Ring for what it was, and did not try to claim his crown too quickly

4.Made the right decision in using the Palantír, and seriously weakened Sauron’s confidence and the carefulness of his hitherto plans.

5.Led the three runners across the fields of Rohan

6.Successfully led forces at the battles of Helm’s Deep, Pelargir, and Pellennor Fields, and didn’t just go down in glorious defeat. Sometimes winning is better than losing, and all the more remarkable when outnumbered.

7.But he was prepared to fulfill the ultimate sacrifice before the Gates of Mordor, where he might have equaled Húrin.

8.Oh yeah … the Paths of the Dead.

So, my vote remains with Strider.

[burrahobbit]

Hurin stared down Sauron's boss for 28 years. Aragorn would probably pee himself if that ever happened to him. Hurin killed 70 trolls in one night, how many did Aragorn kill ever? How many did he run away from?

[ November 24, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Who knows, but I think Aragorn could have remained unenthralled by Morgoth, and perhaps succeeded in not be duped by him. Didn't it occur to Hurin how he was able to see so much?

As for the Trolls, surely the greatest feat of any Warrior, but is that the only measure of a Man? Perhaps Aragorn tried to avoid such situation, and actually win the day and reign in peace.

[burrahobbit]

Aragorn was tuckered out after a spiritual battle with Sauron that only lasted a few hours. I couldn't see him lasting against a more powerful spirit (Morgoth) for one hundredth of the time that Hurin went for. And Hurin only stopped lasting as soon as he did because he was let go. Morgoth gave up trying to beat him.

[Mattius]

I disagree that "Morgoth let him go", there is a quote in the Silm. (I haven't got a copy with me) that says something like, Morgoth would take prisoners and then after years of torture simply let them go to create rumours between the Men and Elves. It goes on to say that the realised would be shunned. I believe that this is what happened with Hurin.

To pick up on an eailer point, greatness does not always have to be measured with might. Perhaps it took much more courage for Beren to cut the Great Jewel from the Iron Crown than it ever did for Hurin to stand up to Morgoth. However, if it was in Hurins character to defy the Evil One then surely he is the greatest.

Sorry about going in circles, I have started a topic that has so many answers!

[Beren87]

On the matter of the number of Orcs killed by Aragorn, I believe the number to be in excesses of Húrin's 70. The stand at Moria, then at Amun Súl, the again at Helm's deep, , then again in front of the gates of Mordor itself.

However Orcs, as men have, dwindled in size and strength throughout the ages (with the exception of the Uruk Hai which were killed by Aragorn) which means Húrin's Orcs were much "tougher" than Aragorn's.

[Legolas]

There were orcs at Amon Sûl?

[burrahobbit]

Who is talking about orcs, Beren87? It certainly wasn't me. It was trolls that Hurin killed 70 of. As far as I can tell Aragorn never killed a single one.

While physical prowess is not the measure of greatness, Hurin fought a spiritual battle with Morgoth for nearly three decades, and won. Spiritual prowess is the measure of greatness.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Hurin's immediate bravery in encountering Morgoth and being unswayed by will of the Mightest Vala is remarkable, and such resistence incredible, but his choices were few, and it was probably quite draining, but he didn't quite keep it up for thirty-some years. Rather he sat there and lapped up what Morgoth chose to show him.

Aragorn for his part chose to confront Sauron, and not only resisted Sauron's will, but overcame it, wresting the Palantir from Sauron, and making Sauron see what Aragorn wanted him to see.

Trolls and Orces, slice & dice.

This snippets are great way to build up Posts!

[Legolas]

On Aragorn's victory over Sauron, Letter No. 246:

In any case a confrontation of Frodo and Sauron would soon have taken place, if the Ring was intact. Its result was inevitable. Frodo would have been utterly overthrown: crushed to dust, or preserved in torment as a gibbering slave. Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself. In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of 'mortals' no one, not even Aragorn. In the contest with the Palantír Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Of course, no "mortal" could, but apparently for JRR Tolkien, Aragorn would be closest. May we assume that puts him ahead of all other Mortals, or just those living at the End of the Third Age. Hmmm!

Just because Aragorn had some rights and privledges with the Palantir, doesn't mean that what he did was some trifle; it only means that he was doing the right thing.