Valar reproduction - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

cesar.ewok · 09-20-2007, 02:49 PM

I was thinking, would it be possible that two Valar dressed in hröar could bear a child? What would be born? An Elf?

And in this account from HoMe X: "Melkor had corrupted many spirits - some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs; but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (kilaling), and they would dwindle in force."

Who were the Maiar-Orcs practising embodied procreating with? Themselves?

William Cloud Hicklin · 09-21-2007, 07:55 AM

Well, the physical form 'worn' by an Ainu was not a hroa, but a -------- (Tolkien gives it a specific name, but I forget). It's qualitatively different from the hroar of Incarnates. The signal exception was the Istari, who indeed by some means known only in Valinor, were ealar incarnate in hroar as if they were Eruhini.

Tolkien makes it clear, I believe in the same essay quoted, that Melian's bearing a child was an extraordinary and singular case, permitted because Luthien was to be part of the Plan (or the Music). Although for a long time Tolkien envisioned "Children of the Valar" (the later Maiar), he abandoned that idea.

As for Maia-orcs: compare the happy, healthy Ungoliant-Shelob family!

alatar · 09-21-2007, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Tolkien makes it clear, I believe in the same essay quoted, that Melian's bearing a child was an extraordinary and singular case, permitted because Luthien was to be part of the Plan (or the Music). Although for a long time Tolkien envisioned "Children of the Valar" (the later Maiar), he abandoned that idea.

My reading of the story of Lúthien and Beren implies that Morgoth considered doing more with the She-Elf than just hearing her sing. Was this the first time that Morgoth had such thoughts, or are the orcs his creation via elves in more than one sense?

Ick!

William Cloud Hicklin · 09-21-2007, 09:55 AM

In some versions, Melkor 'violates' the Sun-Maia Arien.....

cesar.ewok · 09-21-2007, 11:01 AM

Hi, William.

The quenya name of the 'natural' body they used is fana (this body couldn't procreate). But, if they're willing, they can incarnate themselves in hröar, right? And shouldn't the body at least be able to procreate (once they'd be in the same condition and body of Elves, Men, kelvar...)?

Lalwendë · 09-21-2007, 01:08 PM

I'd presume that in order to breed, any of the Ainur would surely have to take the form of one of the species 'allowed' by Eru as he did not allow creation of new species, Morgoth could only corrupt what already existed, for example. So Melian took the form of an Elf in order to produce a child.

The idea that Orcs were originally created by lesser Maiar taking on physical form is an interesting one...would that logically equate to creating a new species or not though? Would that be allowable?

09-20-2007, 02:49 PM	#1
cesar.ewok Pile O'Bones Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 25	Valar reproduction I was thinking, would it be possible that two Valar dressed in hröar could bear a child? What would be born? An Elf? And in this account from HoMe X: "Melkor had corrupted many spirits - some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs; but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (kilaling), and they would dwindle in force." Who were the Maiar-Orcs practising embodied procreating with? Themselves?

09-21-2007, 07:55 AM	#2
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,321	Well, the physical form 'worn' by an Ainu was not a hroa, but a -------- (Tolkien gives it a specific name, but I forget). It's qualitatively different from the hroar of Incarnates. The signal exception was the Istari, who indeed by some means known only in Valinor, were ealar incarnate in hroar as if they were Eruhini. Tolkien makes it clear, I believe in the same essay quoted, that Melian's bearing a child was an extraordinary and singular case, permitted because Luthien was to be part of the Plan (or the Music). Although for a long time Tolkien envisioned "Children of the Valar" (the later Maiar), he abandoned that idea. As for Maia-orcs: compare the happy, healthy Ungoliant-Shelob family! __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

09-21-2007, 09:55 AM	#4
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,321	In some versions, Melkor 'violates' the Sun-Maia Arien..... __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

09-21-2007, 01:08 PM	#6
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	I'd presume that in order to breed, any of the Ainur would surely have to take the form of one of the species 'allowed' by Eru as he did not allow creation of new species, Morgoth could only corrupt what already existed, for example. So Melian took the form of an Elf in order to produce a child. The idea that Orcs were originally created by lesser Maiar taking on physical form is an interesting one...would that logically equate to creating a new species or not though? Would that be allowable? __________________ Gordon's alive!

09-21-2007, 11:01 AM	#5
cesar.ewok Pile O'Bones Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 25	Hi, William. The quenya name of the 'natural' body they used is fana (this body couldn't procreate). But, if they're willing, they can incarnate themselves in hröar, right? And shouldn't the body at least be able to procreate (once they'd be in the same condition and body of Elves, Men, kelvar...)?