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Old 09-04-2007, 07:30 AM   #1
Meneltur
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Sting An Elf with shapeshifting ability? Why?

I have read the tale of Beren and Luthien, and it might have slipped past me; but how is it that Luthien, out of all the Elves can shapeshift? Is Melian capable of that ability? If so, it has escaped me also. If I remember correctly, Tolkien does not really give any background to the nature of her power. It seems that Luthien... just has it.

Also, I thought the ability to shape-shift was a power reserved to the fallen Maia such as Sauron. It just seems that Luthien was using an evil power to counter evil.

Even so, since Luthien had this ability, and through it gained access even to Morgoth himself, why did she not attempt to assassinate him then and there? They could have slain him AND taken the Silmaril. It just seems weird how Tolkien elevated Luthien into an elf who seemed to possess a power with more potential to defeat the evil which was Morgoth than any other high Elf, including Galadriel. I have not seen too many people speak of Luthien's power much, and I guess my main question would be on the specific and peculiar nature of her power.

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Old 09-04-2007, 07:53 AM   #2
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I think men, especially men such as Tolkien, often have this sense that women are changlings who never seem the same they once or first were or who constantly confound them. And having had that experience, they don't much like to tell of of it, unless it can be put down to the woman's questionable slipperiness. It wouldn't bear telling about much, so it isn't something Tolkien choose to elaborate upon.

Or something like that.
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Old 09-04-2007, 08:35 AM   #3
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Well, besides Bêthberry's answer, I think there's nothing as unusual on Lúthien's ability to shapeshift. I am pretty sure Melian could have shapeshifted, we are told that she took the form of one of the Children of Ilúvatar just because of Thingol (I could put a quote in here but I am too lazy now to look for it, sorry ). Also, she was a Maia, and they were all able to pick the shape according to their choice, at least in the beginning, so some part of this ability could have been given to Lúthien. (By the way that does not mean that Lúthien would've gained every ability her Maia mother had, just some of them, and probably with lesser power.)

As for killing Morgoth... I highly doubt Beren and Lúthien would have been up to the task. Even getting one Silmaril was enough, and if anything happened, the whole Angband host was upon them. Not including Morgoth himself. And Lúthien wouldn't risk Beren's life even if she had the chance to use some Elven or higher power to escape. Not that anyone could escape Morgoth when he was awake. Not that anyone could even kill him even if he was asleep, after all, he was a Vala. I think you'd find the best answer to this question if you asked Fingolfin. And, not to forget the last thing, stabbing someone in his sleep just is not a thing a person does in Middle-Earth. That's reserved only for the wicked evil creatures, like the Nazgul, Orcs and similar. It won't be fair, I am sure (not to mention that such a deed would bring reluctance among the storytellers and bards of Middle-Earth, they'd be surely strongly confused whether to even make a heroic song of it. That'd be the biggest crisis in Middle-Earth. So no, that wouldn't be possible).
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Old 09-04-2007, 09:06 AM   #4
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How does killing Evil through stealth bring dishonor? Still, if I remember correctly, when they hewed the Silmaril from Morgoth's crown, the host of Angband was upon them anyway.

Furthermore, if Luthien's lot was to become mortal, would this not be a sufficient punishment if she has killed Morgoth in his sleep?
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Old 09-04-2007, 09:31 AM   #5
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Luthien does appear to have preternatural abilities with shapes and illusions (don't forget her hair/sleeping cloak)- but almost certainly this relates to her Maiarin blood. Note that Finrod 'by his arts' effectively disguised Beren's company as Orcs- but they at least were humanoid!

Ainur in general had the ability to put on and take off visible forms at will. This ability was limited of a purpose with the Istari (Wizards), who were a special case, actually incarnate in hroar like the Eruhini. It also is true that persistence in evil binds an Ainu- even Morgoth- to one physical form; which moreover tends with time to manifest rather than disguise the underlying ugliness. Hence Morgoth from the time of his meeting with Ungoliant was fixed in the form of "the tyrant of Utumno: a dark Lord, tall and terrible," and until the end kept the wounds he got from Fingolfin and Thorondor. Likewise Sauron after the Fall of Numenor was never again able to wear the beautiful disguise of 'Annatar.'
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Old 09-04-2007, 12:40 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Meneltur View Post
How does killing Evil through stealth bring dishonor?
I am pretty sure it's not the way things go in Middle-Earth. Imagine Gandalf or Galadriel killing Saruman in his sleep. Even Théoden won't kill the king of Haradrim or Aragorn won't kill the Mouth of Sauron* in their sleep; they'd first at last wake them up if they stumbled upon them, let them get weapons, and then fight.

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Still, if I remember correctly, when they hewed the Silmaril from Morgoth's crown, the host of Angband was upon them anyway.
Of course, but they had the time to escape. Although it's possible that if they killed Morgoth, there will be total chaos and they'd have chance to get away (we know that it goes that way from other examples, like the escape of the Fellowship from Moria).

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Furthermore, if Luthien's lot was to become mortal, would this not be a sufficient punishment if she has killed Morgoth in his sleep?
Punishment is something you receive for something you did. But the fact that Morgoth was asleep has nothing to do with the fact of becoming mortal.


*Not even while awake (pun intended)
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Old 09-04-2007, 09:29 PM   #7
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Hey, I want to thank everyone who has posted here so far on this thread. You have helped a lot. Things are a lot clearer now.

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