Second Prophecy of Mandos and Dagor Dagorath - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

08-27-2007, 02:09 PM

Hi,

How you are very expert, well, I have a question:

the Second Prophecy of Mandos and Dagor Dagorath are really discarded?

In 'Silmarillion' (Akallabeth) Ar-Pharazon will be imprisoned in the Caves until the Last Battle. And Fëanor will return and he will break the Silmarils and rekindle the light of the Two Trees.

So... what do we know of the Dagor Dagorath and Second Prophecy of Mandos?

(Sorry, my english is not very good... I'm brazilian girl)

Thank you very very much!

William Cloud Hicklin · 08-27-2007, 07:49 PM

This is a very vexed question. Christopher Tolkien's opinion in Morgoth's Ring was that his father discarded the Second Prophecy by about 1958. Others are not so sure about this. Personally I believe that the abandonment of the Second Prophecy (or its mutation into a prophecy of the War of Wrath) are part and parcel of the unachieved impulse to fit the mythos into 'our' scientific world, in which (for the Catholic Tolkien) the Last Battle will be Armageddon, not Dagor Dagorath. Since it was not possible to work this intended reshaping into the published Silmarillion, IMO the Second Prophecy should have been allowed to stand. But that's just me.

cesar.ewok · 09-20-2007, 03:29 PM

Hi, Edhel!

My guess is that the Prophecy shouldn't have been allowed to stand. Or at least few important elements of it: I don't really think that Tolkien would've kept the idea of making Túrin imortal -- and in the Prophecy he kills Morgoth with Gurthang, which was, however, destroyed and lost in the latest versions of the Tale of the CoH. Moreover, we know from the LotR that Sauron did not recover the finger that was cut by Isildur. If Morgoth had his legs (and arms too?) cut, he'd not be able to fight, once he was in that same condition of Sauron (and also of "his greater agents", as told in Ósanwë-kenta). That's what I think.

Findegil · 09-21-2007, 01:19 AM

I think that the Dagor Dagorath was never discarded. The second prophecy might have been but I would not sign such a statement. At least I think both should be discussed single handed and not together.

The Dagor Dagorath could still be valid concept in Tolkiens mind even when he skipped the second prophecy. So I will start my discussion with the Dagor Dagorath:
This phrase is as fare as I know not from the second prophecy but from a text in the chapter on the Isatir in Unfinished Tales. It is their given in short poem speaking about Gandalf. Since it is clear that the poem is much later then The Lord of the Rings it becomes clear that the Dagor Dagorath was at least at this time still in existence as a concept for the end of Arda.

For the problems that we have with certain elements in the second Prophecy I think we should look at a quiet different source about the end of Arda for potential answers: In the Ainulindale we are told that the end of the music, which certainly corresponds to the end of Arda (Marred - at least), came by a direct intervention of Eru. Eru is ever free to choose his agents as he had chosen Manwe as the main instrument of the second theme and Varda to carry the unsullied light of the flame of Anar into the world or Gandalf for rescuing what was left of the glory of Numenor against Sauron. As we see in Gandalfs example Eru has not any problem to resurrect someone from death, least of all a Man whose feä was with him after his death anyway. And would anybody doubt Erus ability to recreate the black-sword for his agent? So I think nothing really speaks against the second prophecy.

Respectfuly
Findegil

William Cloud Hicklin · 09-21-2007, 08:23 AM

Moreover, in its later rescension Turin is said to come not from Mandos- which would be problematical to say the least- but from 'the doom of Men'- which I take to mean beyond Ea, the Timeless Halls, and suggests to me at least the dissolution of boundaries at the Great End. And of course both Morgoth and Ancalagon would have to be in some way 'reincarnated' as well.

cesar.ewok · 11-27-2007, 05:37 PM

I wonder if you guys see a problem if I paste this thread in another community. May I?

08-27-2007, 02:09 PM	#1
Edhelcalen Guest Posts: n/a	Second Prophecy of Mandos and Dagor Dagorath Hi, How you are very expert, well, I have a question: the Second Prophecy of Mandos and Dagor Dagorath are really discarded? In 'Silmarillion' (Akallabeth) Ar-Pharazon will be imprisoned in the Caves until the Last Battle. And Fëanor will return and he will break the Silmarils and rekindle the light of the Two Trees. So... what do we know of the Dagor Dagorath and Second Prophecy of Mandos? (Sorry, my english is not very good... I'm brazilian girl) Thank you very very much!

08-27-2007, 07:49 PM	#2
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,321	This is a very vexed question. Christopher Tolkien's opinion in Morgoth's Ring was that his father discarded the Second Prophecy by about 1958. Others are not so sure about this. Personally I believe that the abandonment of the Second Prophecy (or its mutation into a prophecy of the War of Wrath) are part and parcel of the unachieved impulse to fit the mythos into 'our' scientific world, in which (for the Catholic Tolkien) the Last Battle will be Armageddon, not Dagor Dagorath. Since it was not possible to work this intended reshaping into the published Silmarillion, IMO the Second Prophecy should have been allowed to stand. But that's just me. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

09-20-2007, 03:29 PM	#3
cesar.ewok Pile O'Bones Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 25	Hi, Edhel! My guess is that the Prophecy shouldn't have been allowed to stand. Or at least few important elements of it: I don't really think that Tolkien would've kept the idea of making Túrin imortal -- and in the Prophecy he kills Morgoth with Gurthang, which was, however, destroyed and lost in the latest versions of the Tale of the CoH. Moreover, we know from the LotR that Sauron did not recover the finger that was cut by Isildur. If Morgoth had his legs (and arms too?) cut, he'd not be able to fight, once he was in that same condition of Sauron (and also of "his greater agents", as told in Ósanwë-kenta). That's what I think. Last edited by cesar.ewok; 09-20-2007 at 03:35 PM.

09-21-2007, 08:23 AM	#5
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,321	Moreover, in its later rescension Turin is said to come not from Mandos- which would be problematical to say the least- but from 'the doom of Men'- which I take to mean beyond Ea, the Timeless Halls, and suggests to me at least the dissolution of boundaries at the Great End. And of course both Morgoth and Ancalagon would have to be in some way 'reincarnated' as well. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

09-21-2007, 01:19 AM	#4
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	I think that the Dagor Dagorath was never discarded. The second prophecy might have been but I would not sign such a statement. At least I think both should be discussed single handed and not together. The Dagor Dagorath could still be valid concept in Tolkiens mind even when he skipped the second prophecy. So I will start my discussion with the Dagor Dagorath: This phrase is as fare as I know not from the second prophecy but from a text in the chapter on the Isatir in Unfinished Tales. It is their given in short poem speaking about Gandalf. Since it is clear that the poem is much later then The Lord of the Rings it becomes clear that the Dagor Dagorath was at least at this time still in existence as a concept for the end of Arda. For the problems that we have with certain elements in the second Prophecy I think we should look at a quiet different source about the end of Arda for potential answers: In the Ainulindale we are told that the end of the music, which certainly corresponds to the end of Arda (Marred - at least), came by a direct intervention of Eru. Eru is ever free to choose his agents as he had chosen Manwe as the main instrument of the second theme and Varda to carry the unsullied light of the flame of Anar into the world or Gandalf for rescuing what was left of the glory of Numenor against Sauron. As we see in Gandalfs example Eru has not any problem to resurrect someone from death, least of all a Man whose feä was with him after his death anyway. And would anybody doubt Erus ability to recreate the black-sword for his agent? So I think nothing really speaks against the second prophecy. Respectfuly Findegil

11-27-2007, 05:37 PM	#6
cesar.ewok Pile O'Bones Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 25	I wonder if you guys see a problem if I paste this thread in another community. May I?