The sinking of Numenor - a lesson to whom?

[akhtene]

While rereading the Silm I came across such a description of the sinking of Numenor.

…and Numenor went down into the sea, with all its children and its wives and its maidens and its ladies proud; and all its gardens and its halls and its towers, its tombs and its riches, and its jewels and its web and its things painted or carven, and its laughter and its mirth and its music, its wisdom and its lore: they vanished forever. And last of all the mounting wave green and cold and plumed with foam, climbing over the land, took to its bosom Tar-Miriel the Queen, Fairer than silver or ivory or pearls. Too late she strove to ascend the steep ways of the Meneltarma to the holy place; for the waters overtook her and her cry was lost in the roaring of wind.

OK, I’m not going to ask why it happened and who was to blame if anyone.
My question is: WHY SUCH A POETIC, NOSTALGIC DESCRIPTION? It didn’t leave (with me) the feeling of a rightly deserved punishment, or eliminating something dangerous or hostile. Compare with a much grimmer description of destruction of Angband and sinking of Beleriand

And an end was made to the power of Angband… For so great was the fury of these adversariesthat the northern regions of the western world were rent asunder, and the sea roared in through many chasms, and there was confusion and great noise; and rivers perished or found new paths, and the valleys were upheaved and the hills trod down; and Sirion was no more…

IMHO the wording and style of the first quotation are more suitable for describing fair things destroyed by the Enemy, some terrible loss that shouldn’t have been. And mind, not a word mentions actual rebels or traitors perishing in the catastrophe, or even being on the island at the time. Only children and women and the fruits of fairest culture, and I read it that JRRT laments them. Was it then a mistake, a terrible accident? It couldn’t possibly be, as Eru is the One who knows exactly what He is doing. A lesson then? But for whom? The victims could hardly be taught anything this way. The rebels whose families and riches those were? But they had already been taken from this world (dead or asleep). The Faithful – they didn’t seem to need any such lesson. The rest of the world just in case? But haven’t there been greater villains who deserved punishment but were let off to redeem? Sorry if I sound too harsh or lengthy, but I’m trying to sort things out.

An idea that struck me after reading a recent thread Elves don't belong in Valinor? was that the Valar, Gods or God-like they be, weren’t perhaps always up to the point in carrying out Eru’s designs. And finally they messed things up so that simply lost control of things and had to appeal to Eru. As has been stated by many people here, it was the first (apart from the act of Creation) case of His direct interference in Arda’s affairs. I just presume that He wanted to make it the last one and exercised his power and might to such an extent to impress the Valar. As IMO creation of the Numenorean civilization was their pride and peak of there interference with the affairs of peoples of M-E.. If you agree that not only Elves and Men, but the Ainur were also His children, it’s just a kind of lesson, cruel but final, that a father could teach his children, who’ve become too big-headed but are unwilling or unable to cope on their own.

Well, to cut a long story short, with one stone Eru killed two birds – eventually taught a lesson to those who would learn and physically removed the Valar from the world, thus allowing them to watch and subtly influence, but preventing from meddling directly with HIS design.

If you had time and patience to read this to the end - thanks!

[Mhoram]

My first thought is to consider what perspective these passages are being written from. There may not be enough information to make a conclusion, or there may be in the earlier versions of the story, but if you could figure that out, it might help. For example, if it were Elendil or some other man writing about the fall of Numenor, or even perhaps Elrond, it might sound like that.

In the earlier versions of the Silmarilion it is written as a story being told, but once that idea was abandonned it never really got rewritten stylistically, thats why I suggest this.

[HerenIstarion]

check out the following:

The Downfall of Numenor

Short comment:

I can't agree with definition as of "cruel lesson". I'm quoting myself from abovelinked thread:

Now numenoreans breaking this Ban became worse then orcs (I mean beast-orcs, not eldar or atani tortured by Morgoth), because one falling from a higher level falls deeper on the scale than one standing low from the beginning. They were seduced, but not by Sauron – he was a kind of the last drop, but by their own pride, which is opposite to obedience and acceptance. They started by rejecting the Lord’s gift, and ended up rejecting the Lord himself, wich is severest sin possible to commit. Still they were not punished – harm made to phisical body, hroa, in this case can not be counted as a punishment, but the decision was delayed somehow – here we have their eternal sleep until the day of Doom, which, maybe. is due to Ar-Pharazon’s hesitation in the end, or, still maybe a sign of the great mercy of the Lord who LOVES his children anyway. But their land was polluted by them, and had to be destroyed. So we got Atalante instead of Elenna.(cf history of Sodom)

the rest there [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ November 19, 2002: Message edited by: HerenIstarion ]

[tom bombariffic]

I would have said that The sinking of Numenor would have been written like that for 1 of 3 reasons:

a) Maybe it was because, although Eru's children rejected him and he was willing to drown them, it still brought a great pain to him to have to drown them, and of course to remember the reason why he was drowning them : they didnt believe in him. Sure, he wanted them gone, but surely that dosen't mean he wasn't upset about doing it?

b)Perhaps It was written like that because a lot of the drowned were just jumping on the bandwagon: it started with a few non-believers, then most of the population were caught up in it, pressured into not believing. It could have been that most of these people were dying because they had got caught up in the frenzy, and not because they were truly evil. That could be why it is written so sadly.

c) by far the least structured of my reasons, it could be to mirror the "noah's ark" story. We know that the bible is mirrored a lot in the silm, and I think (although Im not certain) that the Noah's ark story is written somewhat sadly, even though it was the right thing to do. Not sure about this one, just a speculation really.

I personally believe in the 1st reason, but then who knows? If anyone has any reasons of their own or comments on my reasoning, I'd be happy to hear them...

Bombariffic

[Atariel]

Duh? it was obviously to punish the Numenoreans, becuase *they* were ensnared by Sauron and *they* should have known better. after all, they are the forefathers of all men on MIddle Earth. how can we be wise and noble if a group of *wise* and *noble* men, supposedly better than us cos we have dwindled, couldn't even say no to an Ainur?

[Amanaduial the archer]

when you say they, it is the same they that people use to descibe masses. Its like the term "the public" is very different from "lots of individuals".

And certainly "they" were ensnared by Sauron and were becoming corrupted by him and his dark promises and orders, making sacrifices to him in horrible ways. Therefore, "they" deserved to be punished for these crimes and for turning directly against their gods. But did they truly need to be punished? In other words, did the Queen, Tar-Miriel deserve to be punished? And others who had gone against Sauron and his followers.

Just a thought. Sorry if you have no idea what Im talking about with the "they"s and the theys.

[Galorme]

Who is the lesson aimed at? Us of course!

Anyway. In the bible didn't god regret what he did when he sunk the world? He acted in wrath and folly. God is not a perfect being (at least in the bible), and I think in the same way Eru is not perfect either. He was p*ssed off because his children were worshiping evil, so he hit the child. And, like a father who beats his children, justified it by saying, "it was to teach them a lesson". He was merely being human, or at least the template for a human (were Men made in Eru's image the same way they were made in God's image in Christianity?)

[Voronwe]

I have to disagree with you there, Galorme. While it may or may not be otherwise in the Bible, Tolkien portrays Eru as a perfect and very distant god who only interacts with his creation on a few occasions. The Valar, of course, are certainly not perfect. It's debateable whether it was the Valar or Eru that took the decision to destroy Numenor; Manwe could have called upon Eru to accomplish the downfall of Numenor and the subsequent change of the world, since it was beyond the power of the Valar.

As to the original question, I don't think the downfall of Numenor was a lesson to anyone. It was simply the only just (although somewhat brutal) outcome of the situation. Numemor was originally a gift to the men who had rejected Morgoth and remained faithful to the Valar (and thereby Eru) in the War of Wrath. When the Numemoreans finally turned to worshiping Morgoth and attempted to make war upon the Valar, then the 'land of gift' was taken away. Only those who still remained faithful survived, but they too had Numenor taken away from them and had to return to Middle Earth.

This brings me to the reason for the poetic, regretful prose style in the description of the Downfall. This is easily explained by Elendil being the author of The Akallabeth, which is stated in Unfinished Tales. Elendil, while perhaps accepting the judgement of the Valar as just, is nonetheless filled with sadness at the destruction of his homeland, and with it so much knowledge, culture and beauty. Even many years after the Downfall the Numenoreans still thought of themselves as exiles, so Elendil's pain and loss must have been very deep. The passage is more an expression of regret for all good aspects of Numenor destroyed in the Downfall than any kind of justification for what happened.

[ November 19, 2002: Message edited by: Voronwe ]

[Galorme]

Well Eru is clearly not perfect, he may be careful and aloof, but he is clearly not perfect. Or if he is it suggests something somewhat darker. Because if Eru was perfect he could see that the men of Westinesse were turning to evil and could have taken somewhat a somewhat less horrific ruite, even something as simple as killing them painlessly. I don’t think it is Tolkein’s wish to portray Eru as perfect by any means. He even portrays him a big egocentric at times (“everything is for my greater glory”).

[Blokdog]

Originally Posted by Galorme

Well Eru is clearly not perfect, he may be careful and aloof, but he is clearly not perfect. Or if he is it suggests something somewhat darker. Because if Eru was perfect he could see that the men of Westinesse were turning to evil and could have taken somewhat a somewhat less horrific ruite, even something as simple as killing them painlessly. I don’t think it is Tolkein’s wish to portray Eru as perfect by any means. He even portrays him a big egocentric at times (“everything is for my greater glory”).

galorme, I disagree.
if you read the sil very carefully, you see that the valar knew long before that the numenoreans were turning to evil. see the conversation with tar-atanamir, when he, and his people, are warned for foolishness.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Blokdog

galorme, I disagree.
if you read the sil very carefully, you see that the valar knew long before that the numenoreans were turning to evil. see the conversation with tar-atanamir, when he, and his people, are warned for foolishness.

Blokdog, Welcome to the Downs!

I'm not sure what you mean in your post. Galorme noted that Eru isn't presented as being perfect, and you note that the Valar knew that the Númenóreans were turning to evil. I'm having trouble connecting those dots. Care to help?

[Blokdog]

Originally Posted by alatar

Blokdog, Welcome to the Downs!

I'm not sure what you mean in your post. Galorme noted that Eru isn't presented as being perfect, and you note that the Valar knew that the Númenóreans were turning to evil. I'm having trouble connecting those dots. Care to help?

well, I was a bit in a hurry, so I couldn't quite complete my post. in his post he states that eru wasn't perfect because he hadn't noticed that the numenoreans were turning to evil. i just wanted to make clear that if the valar, who were certainly not perfect, knew this, it's no use to say that eru wasn't perfect, only for the reason...

[HerenIstarion]

Galorme, I Have to totally disagree.

Free will is involved in the matter (btw, check out this thread) - Numenoreans, in fact, chose to be drowned themselves. And physical pain was not and is not considered as greatest evil possible, so the remark of "painless" death is meaningless. Death is not punishment, is a gift of Eru, release from the circles of the world. The birth is essential only as far as it qualifies human for his future death (since one can not die being unborn)Mark also that those mostly guilty - warriors of the fleet, - are not killed at all, but put to sleep under ruined hills of Aman until the end of the world. One starts to suspect that women and children left on an island were graced comparing with those of the fleet, who's depart journay was delayed for uncertain, but presumably very long period On the other hand, delay of their death may be considered as mercy on Eru's behalf as well, since he gave ar-Pharazon the chance to redeem his evil choice in the end, after awakening but before such an essential part of human's life as death is.

[ November 21, 2002: Message edited by: HerenIstarion ]

[tom bombariffic]

But the Men don't see death as a gift - they see it as a punishment. That's the funny thing about the children of Iluvatar - The Firstborn regard men as lucky as they get to die naturally - elves soon grow weary of the world and many wish to die. The Secondborn, however, are afraid of death and many see it as a punishment. Bottom line: each are jealous of each other when it comes to death.

I agree with you that being imprisoned under a hill until the end of the world is worse, but those who drowned in Numenor - despite death being a gift - were still being punished by Iluvatar, as he knew that they regarded death as a bad thing.

By the way, would those who were drowned due to their evilness have still gone on to the afterlife?

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

The sinking of Numenor was sad, because it shouldn't have happened. Numenor was once a high, mighty, light civilisation; the perfect human existence. That they fell from this incredible enlightenment and glory to rebelling agaist the Eru and the very Valar who had provided them with their island, and to being jealous of the Elves who lived forever, is the tradegy. Their path had turned astray.
Thir destruction was certainly necessary, for they were an intolerable danger to the world and were now, in fact, an evil power. This is not to say that the fall and destruction was not lamentable.

And no, I don't think it was a 'lesson' to anyone really. It was just a necessary act; although it probably put the fear of god (The real fear of god) into the Dunedain forever. I spose that was good outcome anyway.

[Galorme]

"The fear of God". Now that sounds just plain evil. The idea that there is a higher power who will punish you if you do wrong is just sick. Don’t you love Christianity?

In case you haven't guessed I am letting some of my Atheist beliefs infuence me here a tad.

[Anárion Cúthalion]

Originally Posted by Galorme

"The fear of God". Now that sounds just plain evil. The idea that there is a higher power who will punish you if you do wrong is just sick. Don’t you love Christianity?

In case you haven't guessed I am letting some of my Atheist beliefs infuence me here a tad.

I'll grant you, his/her tone was a little off-putting, but, genuine 'fear' of God is more akin to very, very strong reverence. Humility, if you will. I think it was mostly the fault of the Numenorean Fleet and their King which sealed the fate of the whole nation on the home island; their hubris, their pride and vanity all conspired to bring them to a place where Sauron could bend them to his will. Or at least to where he could plant the seed of boldness that drove them to pursue what they were already thinking. The people on Numenor are fine now, where ever Eru wants them to be. The Fleet, on the other hand, is in a form of living (well, sleeping) hell until the proverbial sounding of the trumpet.

[Lalwendë]

There are some facts to be had on the history of Numenor which help. The first is that it wasn't a gift of Eru, but of the Valar. The rules about not setting foot on the shores of Valinor (technically, not leaving sight of the shores of Numenor) were also set by the Valar, and not Eru. It was also Manwe who called upon Eru to do something about Ar-Pharazon's expedition (possibly following Amandil's journey to Valinor to parley with the bosses?).

If you read the discussion between Amandil and Elendil (which I was going to put in a quote but it's maybe so long as to be a bit close to breaching copyright ) then there is a hint that Amandil, if he indeed got to Valinor (this is kept purposefully shady) asked Manwe to get rid of Numenor. Read it, I want to see what you guys think.

Here's a little, and the most intriging part:

Seek out the Faithful that are known still to be true, and let them join you in secret, if they are willing to go with you, and share in your design.'
'And what shall that design be?' said Elendil.
'To meddle not in the war, and to watch,' answered Amandil. 'Until I return I can say no more. But it is most like that you shall fly from the Land of the Star with no star to guide you; for that land is defiled. Then you shall lose all that you have loved, foretasting death in life, seeking a land of exile elsewhere. But east or west the Valar alone can say.'
Then Amandil said farewell to all his household, as one that is about to die. 'For,' said he, 'it may well prove that you will see me never again; and that I shall show you no such sign as Earendil showed long ago. But hold you ever in readiness, for the end of the world that we have known is now at hand.'

Reading on from there, the Valar clearly did all they could within their remit (not being permitted to meddle with Men) to stop the Numenoreans from their plans, even causing an earthquake, which just leaves Sauron looking even cooler to Ar-Pharazon and his mates in a fabulously diabolical scene where he defies lightning. So they called on Eru.

I find it hard to take that Eru would do this in order to teach Men a lesson, as those who were doing wrong were killed, along with a lot of innocents - not just in Numenor but also in Middle-earth as that too suffered huge floods and earthquakes - and who would there be to learn from this? Plus it would put Eru in the position of being an unpleasant figure. I'm quite happy to go along with Macalaure's idea that Eru did not intend to kill these people, just to change the shape of the world (which was something the Valar could not do).

In matter of fact, the perpetrators weren't really punished. Sauron got a fright and legged it from the ruins, while Ar-Pharazon and his Men are entombed in Valinor waiting for the final day, in a strong echo of Loki waiting for Ragnarok:

But Ar-Pharazon the King and the mortal warriors that had set foot upon the land of Aman were buried under falling hills: there it is said that they lie imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten, until the Last Battle and the Day of Doom.

Would Eru be so petty as to try a school teacher trick of keeping the whole class behind because one of them has been shooting spit balls? Hmmm...

[alatar]

Thanks for the great post, Lalwendë.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

There are some facts to be had on the history of Numenor which help. The first is that it wasn't a gift of Eru, but of the Valar. The rules about not setting foot on the shores of Valinor (technically, not leaving sight of the shores of Numenor) were also set by the Valar, and not Eru. It was also Manwe who called upon Eru to do something about Ar-Pharazon's expedition (possibly following Amandil's journey to Valinor to parley with the bosses?).

I never saw it that way before. This is yet another blunder by the Valar. Seems that every time they intervene with lesser beings, those beings die. Thinking about it, maybe this is the way it is supposed to be, where Manwe et al are just greater versions of ourselves. We are all children of the One; some just have greater abilities/responsibilities, and when they make a mistake, the foundations of Arda shake. I guess that instead of seeing the Valar as perfect, we can see them as like us, trying to get it right but not always doing so.

Must be those lies of Melkor, making me think that they're all gods or something.

Reading on from there, the Valar clearly did all they could within their remit (not being permitted to meddle with Men) to stop the Numenoreans from their plans, even causing an earthquake, which just leaves Sauron looking even cooler to Ar-Pharazon and his mates in a fabulously diabolical scene where he defies lightning. So they called on Eru.

As you say, these beings may not be perfect and all-knowing as their PR makes it seem. Maybe Eru removed Aman from the world to protect US from them!

I find it hard to take that Eru would do this in order to teach Men a lesson, as those who were doing wrong were killed, along with a lot of innocents - not just in Numenor but also in Middle-earth as that too suffered huge floods and earthquakes - and who would there be to learn from this? Plus it would put Eru in the position of being an unpleasant figure.

It does put the One in a bad light. Why did the innocents die? Was there some reason they had to be sacrificed?

I'm quite happy to go along with Macalaure's idea that Eru did not intend to kill these people, just to change the shape of the world (which was something the Valar could not do).

Omniscient beings don't get the pleasure of saying, "Oops! Sorry."

In matter of fact, the perpetrators weren't really punished. Sauron got a fright and legged it from the ruins, while Ar-Pharazon and his Men are entombed in Valinor waiting for the final day, in a strong echo of Loki waiting for Ragnarok:

Do we have any direct evidence that Eru actually exists? Or is it all based on hearsay via the Valar? What if they, consciously or subconsciously, created this overbeing as a useful tool? When things get really bad, they can blame him. No one's the wiser.

Would Eru be so petty as to try a school teacher trick of keeping the whole class behind because one of them has been shooting spit balls? Hmmm...

One would hope not. But I thought that not all warriors were so entombed, but just those few that set foot to Aman with the King?

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Lalwende

If you read the discussion between Amandil and Elendil (which I was going to put in a quote but it's maybe so long as to be a bit close to breaching copyright) then there is a hint that Amandil, if he indeed got to Valinor (this is kept purposefully shady) asked Manwe to get rid of Numenor. Read it, I want to see what you guys think.

Intriguing idea (), but there are other lines from the same passage that speak against it, I think.

If I thought that Manwe needed such a messenger, I would betray the king. For there is but one loyalty from which no man can be absolved in heart for any cause. But it is for mercy upon Men and their deliverance from Sauron the Deceiver that I would plead, since some at least have remained faithful.

I always saw Amandil's words to Elendil rather like a prophecy of some kind. Maybe it was because of this foreseeing that he felt the need to tell Manwe that not all Numenor had gone bad, and that it, or at least some of it, was still worth protecting.
When the Faithfuls are saved, the connection with Amandil's plea is stated again:

But whether or not it were that Amandil came indeed to Valinor and Manwe hearkened to his prayer, by the grace of the Valar Elendil and his sons and their people were spared from the ruin of that day.

Actually, this is also something which belongs in with your "Facts about Númenor": It's very often overlooked that it was the Valar who saved the Faithfuls, and not Eru. The Faithfuls escaped because of Amandil's foresight and the sudden "great winds roaring from the west", which I suppose came from Manwe (and also because of Sauron's soldiers which forced Elendil to man the ships instead of just waiting in the harbour).

Originally Posted by alatar

Omniscient beings don't get the pleasure of saying, "Oops! Sorry."

But do they get the pleasure of saying, "Yeah, whatever."?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Actually, this is also something which belongs in with your "Facts about Númenor": It's very often overlooked that it was the Valar who saved the Faithfuls, and not Eru.

But wasn't it the Valar who called upon Eru? I think what they were saying was something like "We'll let these good people escape, and then we'll let Eru destroy Numenor however he wants."

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Actually, this is also something which belongs in with your "Facts about Númenor": It's very often overlooked that it was the Valar who saved the Faithfuls, and not Eru. The Faithfuls escaped because of Amandil's foresight and the sudden "great winds roaring from the west", which I suppose came from Manwe (and also because of Sauron's soldiers which forced Elendil to man the ships instead of just waiting in the harbour).

I think you mean that it was the Faithful that saved the Faithful. If the Valar were involved, there'd be some floating island involved . Manwe's eastward wind was to slow the progress of Ar-Pharazon (or at least to give his rowers something to do). This same wind pushed the Faithful to safety; sure, but if they were still on Numenor, no wind would have pushed them across so far a sea.

But do they get the pleasure of saying, "Yeah, whatever."?

"My ways are not your ways, and I like drowning things."

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I find it hard to take that Eru would do this in order to teach Men a lesson, as those who were doing wrong were killed, along with a lot of innocents - not just in Numenor but also in Middle-earth as that too suffered huge floods and earthquakes - and who would there be to learn from this? Plus it would put Eru in the position of being an unpleasant figure. I'm quite happy to go along with Macalaure's idea that Eru did not intend to kill these people, just to change the shape of the world (which was something the Valar could not do).

There was plenty of collateral damage by Yahweh in the bible. I mean really, actually count the amount of massacres Yahweh not only condoned, but ordered, and you will be amazed. God-sponsored genocide in the bible took no account of young or old, men, women, children or infants. The innocent fell with the guilty, unless they were the chosen, and in Tolkien's case the chosen were the Faithful, and they were spared.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

In matter of fact, the perpetrators weren't really punished. Sauron got a fright and legged it from the ruins, while Ar-Pharazon and his Men are entombed in Valinor waiting for the final day, in a strong echo of Loki waiting for Ragnarok:...

Sauron cannot be technically killed, can he? So disembodying him was about all one could do. And I think the greatest mortal king of the Second Age being buried under a hill for eternity does have some poetic justice. I mean, it's almost merciful. In a Christian sense, Ar-Pharazon would have face the eternal torments of Hell in the same circumstance.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Would Eru be so petty as to try a school teacher trick of keeping the whole class behind because one of them has been shooting spit balls? Hmmm...

Again, taken in context with the biblical Yahweh, Eru comes off looking much less vengeful and spiteful...almost kindly, in a wrath of god, apocalyptic sense.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Would Eru be so petty as to try a school teacher trick of keeping the whole class behind because one of them has been shooting spit balls? Hmmm...

Perhaps the Numenorean people should never have existed at all; one could consider them a failed experiment on the part of the Valar, a phenomenon that defied went against too many facts of reality and that was, at its core, wrong. It had gone well at first, but eventually it became clear that Men were not meant to live in such privilege, so close to the Valar, with gifts of knowledge, strength, health, and the ability to die when they saw fit. It might seem callous or simplistic to just take the Numenoreans as a whole race, rather than on an individual basis, but this approach would be consistent with Tolkien's style of dealing with race in LOTR: he frequent relies on generalities. The Numenoreans had run their course, which really never should have been. In this light, Eru appears merciful for allowing a few of this problematic people group, this aberration, to continue.

(I've never thought about it this way before, and I haven't even entirely convinced myself yet - but I'm entertaining the notion.)

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Again, taken in context with the biblical Yahweh, Eru comes off looking much less vengeful and spiteful...almost kindly, in a wrath of god, apocalyptic sense.

It does seem that the biggest mention of "wrath" is the War of Wrath, which was a label the Elves gave to the mobilization of the Valar against Morgoth -- which, if I'm recalling correctly, didn't really sit terribly well with Eru; He would have preferred them to move against Melkor much sooner, and trust Him to protect the Eruhini rather than remove the Elves to Aman for safekeeping -- a move which ultimately led to not only the destruction of Beleriand, but the creation and downfall of Numenor. In the Akallabeth, it says:

Then Manwe upon the Mountain called upon Iluvatar, and for that time the Valar laid down their government of Arda. But Iluvatar showed forth his power and he changed the fashion of the world; and a great chasm opened in the sea between Numenor and the Deathless Lands, and the waters flowed down into it, and the noise and smoke of the cataracts went up into heaven, and the world was shaken...

There is no mention of wrath or punishment; in fact, there is no mention of whose idea this cataclysm was. Was it the Valar's, or Eru's? The whole "Numenor Project" was not terribly well conceived; it seems very much that the Valar, in attempting to reward the Edain, made another version of the same mistake they made with the Elves, allowing them to come close to something they then forbad them have. If they had learned about jealousy from Melkor and Feanor, they would have realized that this problem would almost inevitably arise among the Numenoreans. Sauron didn't cause them to yearn for immortality; he simply goaded them into an act he felt certain would bring about their complete destruction. It could be that the Valar, in setting aside their governance, asked for some kind of "final solution," without realizing the full implications of what they asked.

I also wonder just who wrote the account of the Akallabeth, particularly in regards to events in Aman (if we carry forward Tolkien's "conceit" of presuming these are actual historical documents). One can presume that Elendil and the other refugees were aware of the great wave and the inundation of the land, but who told the writer about the doings of the Valar? I can't imagine anyone in Middle-earth knew those particular details (unless Ulmo or Osse told them to Cirdan); is the document one peculiar to Elven historians in Aman?

Enquiring minds still want to know....

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Perhaps the Numenorean people should never have existed at all; one could consider them a failed experiment on the part of the Valar, a phenomenon that defied went against too many facts of reality and that was, at its core, wrong. It had gone well at first, but eventually it became clear that Men were not meant to live in such privilege, so close to the Valar, with gifts of knowledge, strength, health, and the ability to die when they saw fit. It might seem callous or simplistic to just take the Numenoreans as a whole race, rather than on an individual basis, but this approach would be consistent with Tolkien's style of dealing with race in LOTR: he frequent relies on generalities. The Numenoreans had run their course, which really never should have been. In this light, Eru appears merciful for allowing a few of this problematic people group, this aberration, to continue.

(I've never thought about it this way before, and I haven't even entirely convinced myself yet - but I'm entertaining the notion.)

This has made me think about the rights and wrongs of what the Valar did.

The Valar were quite cruel, providing Men with this island from which could be seen a tiny little glimpse of the Undying Lands, a place where the people are immortals. Not only that, but creating a place of near-perfection which only lacked that one ingredient which allowed the Men there to enjoy this paradise in eternity. Back in the 'real world', i.e. Middle-earth, life was still relatively gritty (even more so once the Edain upped sticks and abandoned the rest of the Men to their fate), but on Numenor it was great - just that they could only enjoy this 'jolly' of a life for a limited time.

Yet Eru had made Men in their nature mortals, and had made them that way because Eru saw their mortality as a gift. The Valar did not go against this, they could not change that, but they certainly tampered with it.

What happened in Numenor also gives you some background on why in later years the Elves tried to keep away from Men. It was quite possibly for the benefit of Men, not to torment them with this one thing they could not have.

I wouldn't say it was merciful for Eru to cause the cataclysm which sent Numenor to the watery depths, but it could certainly be argued that it was necessary for him to take the Undying Lands away from the sight of Men, for their own good.

[sleepless_elf]

Originally Posted by Galorme

"The fear of God". Now that sounds just plain evil. The idea that there is a higher power who will punish you if you do wrong is just sick. Don’t you love Christianity?

In case you haven't guessed I am letting some of my Atheist beliefs infuence me here a tad.

hmm well if thats the logic, then why should the gouverment punish those who break the law? in essence they too are a higher power than us. however i do agree with you that the bible does make it sound like the god described in it is not perfect.


with regards to numenor, it was a neccessary act. it had to be done. however, what i found most sad about it is that the faithfull numenoreans suffered the worst out of it. because they had to live with the fact that their country of birth was no more. for all their faithfulness, they were exiled to middle earth!

just a side note, in the appendix of the lord of the rings, the tale of aragorn and arwen, didnt arwen clearly state that she felt sorry for even the corrupted numenoreans? '' as wicked fools i scorned them, but i pity them atlast! ''

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by sleepless_elf

hmm well if thats the logic, then why should the gouverment punish those who break the law? in essence they too are a higher power than us. however i do agree with you that the bible does make it sound like the god described in it is not perfect.

This might be off-topic, but I really have to set you straight on this one. The Bible uses language like "regret" and "repent" in reference to God in order to describe in human terms what appears to be a change in God's will. It's not, of course, and in the long run everything goes according to eternal plan.

[Mhoram]

"The fear of God". Now that sounds just plain evil. The idea that there is a higher power who will punish you if you do wrong is just sick. Don’t you love Christianity?

There is simply no place for a comment like that in The Books, or anywhere else on this forum. Stay on topic and leave your (non)religious convictions at the door.

[ November 21, 2002: Message edited by: Mhoram ]

[HerenIstarion]

Galorme, I believe there is no "punishment" in case of Numenor's fall. Do you think the phrase "quit smoking or else you'll die" is threat? I'd rather name it warning. Or do you call surgeon cutting the cancer "executioner"? For it may look as punishment from cancer's point of view, but is healing from the whole body's. Numenor became cancer on the body of the Arda, it simply had to be drowned.

[ November 22, 2002: Message edited by: HerenIstarion ]

[Galorme]

Galorme plunges yet another conversation into a heated arguement. This had not been a good week [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[HerenIstarion]

the truth is oft born in the [heated] debate... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[greyhavener]

True words, HerenInstarion.

The legend of Atlantis seems to me the most obvious parallel for the sinking of Numenor. Catastrophic events create change and end eras. Legend and speculation arise out of lost civilizations.

Tolkien's philosophy seems to be in the "there are larger forces at work" camp, however he hints that the reasons events occur might not be for mortal understanding.

I do see similarities between the attitude of the people of Numenor and those building the tower of Babel and can see how punishment for pride and a lust for power might fit the sinking of Numenor as it does the destruction of the tower. Destruction reveals the frailty of mortal strength.

However, there is sadness and longing for Numenor that is seldom associated with places destroyed as retribution for evil. It is the melancholy of the children of Israel exiled in Babylon "by the waters of Babylon I lay dowm my harp and I wept..." It is the heart that wants Avalon to be real. It is the whispers in ancient places like the Pueblos and the Parthenon. Tolkien said something to the effect that myths are truth wrapped in a story. I think this is a myth revealing a truth about mortality, loss and change.

[ November 25, 2002: Message edited by: greyhavener ]

[ November 25, 2002: Message edited by: greyhavener ]

[ November 25, 2002: Message edited by: greyhavener ]

[alatar]

…and Numenor went down into the sea, with all its children and its wives and its maidens and its ladies proud; and all its gardens and its halls and its towers, its tombs and its riches, and its jewels and its web and its things painted or carven, and its laughter and its mirth and its music, its wisdom and its lore: they vanished forever. And last of all the mounting wave green and cold and plumed with foam, climbing over the land, took to its bosom Tar-Miriel the Queen, Fairer than silver or ivory or pearls. Too late she strove to ascend the steep ways of the Meneltarma to the holy place; for the waters overtook her and her cry was lost in the roaring of wind.

Originally Posted by akhtene

My question is: WHY SUCH A POETIC, NOSTALGIC DESCRIPTION?

IMHO the wording and style of the first quotation are more suitable for describing fair things destroyed by the Enemy, some terrible loss that shouldn’t have been. And mind, not a word mentions actual rebels or traitors perishing in the catastrophe, or even being on the island at the time. Only children and women and the fruits of fairest culture, and I read it that JRRT laments them. Was it then a mistake, a terrible accident? It couldn’t possibly be, as Eru is the One who knows exactly what He is doing. A lesson then? But for whom? The victims could hardly be taught anything this way. The rebels whose families and riches those were? But they had already been taken from this world (dead or asleep). The Faithful – they didn’t seem to need any such lesson. The rest of the world just in case? But haven’t there been greater villains who deserved punishment but were let off to redeem? Sorry if I sound too harsh or lengthy, but I’m trying to sort things out.

I'm interesting in knowing *who* recorded the event of those last moments. No one that lived saw Numenor drowned. The King's Men were either on ships or going down with the Land of the Star. The Faithful were sailing eastward, though not of their own volition.

I think that the 'poetic' description could be due to a few things. Anyone else ever feel lonely, or the loss of something vague that pulls at the heart? Was there some loss of something beautiful that Tolkien was expressing in these words? Was it the loss of innocence, like that one day when you 'wake up' and realize that you are no longer a child, and that the world isn't truly all chrome and flying cars?

Or was Tolkien trying to describe the Biblical story of the Fall, when Adam and Eve were kicked out of Eden? In that story, the Garden is not destroyed, but man's access is forever denied (well, maybe), and so in a sense this gifted garden too was removed from the Earth. Both stories describe a sadness of things that might have been, but now no longer can be. A paradise for men, a place of ease and safety, a fair place of healing and goodness, is lost in the mists.

Maybe if it were written less poetically, the reader would think, "Good for them! Drown all of those faithless ingrates!" The sadness over the loss of what was once beautiful (even though it currently festered) just wouldn't come across.

[Firefoot]

Originally Posted by akhtene

My question is: WHY SUCH A POETIC, NOSTALGIC DESCRIPTION? It didn’t leave (with me) the feeling of a rightly deserved punishment, or eliminating something dangerous or hostile.

Because although it was a deserved punishment, it was a tragedy that never should have happened. The nostalgia is for Numenor as it used to be - that Numenor had been dying for a long time, and its corruption was complete before it sank - the sinking was more like the burial of something dead rather than the murder or something living.

It can hardly have pleased Eru/the Valar to sink the island - they aren't, in general, vindictive sorts who sit on their thrones waiting for people to screw up so that they can be punished. It would have pleased them much more for the Numenoreans to see the error of their ways and, well, repent. To put it another way, let's say you have a really nice vase or something in your house, and it falls and breaks. You're going to fix it if you can, especially if it only chips. But sometimes you can't fix things... if it's in a thousand pieces, no matter how much you like the vase you sweep it up and throw it out. That doesn't mean you like getting rid of it. Numenor was in that thousand pieces... it couldn't be "fixed" and didn't want to be.

[doug*platypus]

An interesting observation; it is a rather poetic and nostalgic account. I think this stems from Professor Tolkien's vision of what Atlantis may have been like. As I understand it, both Atlantis and Númenor represented a golden age of civilisation. Throughout the legendarium, there is a sense of the Númenóreans being the crowning glory of human achievement: their buildings, their prowess in battle, even aspects like their longevity and height. The fact that they could fall so far morally, to worship Melkor and assault the realm of the Valar is a tragedy, hence the wording. And the tragedy makes for good reading, to be quite honest. If the text were simply to state that "these people were bad, and so they were quite rightly punished" it would be very matter-of-fact and not so entertaining!

The description akhtene provided of the end of Angband is quite different, and rightly so. So much strife, war, bloodshed, horror and evil took place in Beleriand in the war with Morgoth, that quite frankly it was a relief when the Host of the West came in and destroyed the baddies, and the whole area was submerged by the cleansing sea. Still somewhat tragic, as many formerly beautiful or wondrous places would have been lost, and many lives as well we can surmise, but not so tragic apparently as the downfall of Númenor.

[alatar]

I stepped right over the original question, or at least that which is posed in the thread title. "To whom was the lesson directed?"

I assume that it was to the Númenóreans, showing that that which is given can be as easily taken away. Sure, these men were rewarded for their faithfulness in the breaking of Angband, but this did not give them carte blanche to do whatever caught their fancy. When they too strayed down the dark road, it lead to their ruin as well, as it does for all beings.

Even Melkor and Sauron were good once, and yet...

Anyway, the Faithful that escaped the ruin would carry the lesson forward. Some might obscure the lesson with thought of merely the "Golden Age," but that is just part of the whole story.

Another thought: Was this a retelling of the Biblical story of the Tower of Babel, where united humanity attempted to build a tower all the way to Heaven (or however the story is read)? This act of pride was 'rewarded' with the dispersing of all humanity due to divinely-enacted language barriers, and so never again could humanity unite in such a prideful way - trying to reach Heaven/Aman.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by alatar

I assume that it was to the Númenóreans, showing that that which is given can be as easily taken away. Sure, these men were rewarded for their faithfulness in the breaking of Angband, but this did not give them carte blanche to do whatever caught their fancy. When they too strayed down the dark road, it lead to their ruin as well, as it does for all beings.

Anyway, the Faithful that escaped the ruin would carry the lesson forward. Some might obscure the lesson with thought of merely the "Golden Age," but that is just part of the whole story.

To whom was the sinking of Numenor directed? The answer is threefold: 1. The Numenorean survivors, 2. Sauron, and 3. the rest of mankind.

One has to consider the flood not merely as a localized punishment for Numenor. If that were the case, Ar-Pharazon and his army's destruction would have served the purpose. With Eru's involvement (and if we grant him a deity's omnipresence), it seems obvious that he would be aware that Sauron was the arch-nemesis of the whole Ar-Pharazon invasion, and would explain how Sauron was caught utterly by surprise by the virulence of the flood. Also, like the biblical flood, the lesson of god's wrath extends beyond the Israelites (or whatever Noah's folk was termed as at that point), and acts as a parable of divine retribution for later generations of mankind.

Originally Posted by alatar

Another thought: Was this a retelling of the Biblical story of the Tower of Babel, where united humanity attempted to build a tower all the way to Heaven (or however the story is read)? This act of pride was 'rewarded' with the dispersing of all humanity due to divinely-enacted language barriers, and so never again could humanity unite in such a prideful way - trying to reach Heaven/Aman.

No, Al, I don't think it has anything to do with Babel. It is Tolkien's wedding of the biblical flood and the myth of Atlantis (thus Tolkien using the word Atalante). I think it was very clever of the Professor, and makes the story less allegorical and more in line with a world mythology rather than a direct link to a specific religion.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

To whom was the sinking of Numenor directed? The answer is threefold: 1. The Numenorean survivors, 2. Sauron, and 3. the rest of mankind.

One has to consider the flood not merely as a localized punishment for Numenor. If that were the case, Ar-Pharazon and his army's destruction would have served the purpose. With Eru's involvement (and if we grant him a deity's omnipresence), it seems obvious that he would be aware that Sauron was the arch-nemesis of the whole Ar-Pharazon invasion, and would explain how Sauron was caught utterly by surprise by the virulence of the flood. Also, like the biblical flood, the lesson of god's wrath extends beyond the Israelites (or whatever Noah's folk was termed as at that point), and acts as a parable of divine retribution for later generations of mankind.



No, Al, I don't think it has anything to do with Babel. It is Tolkien's wedding of the biblical flood and the myth of Atlantis (thus Tolkien using the word Atalante). I think it was very clever of the Professor, and makes the story less allegorical and more in line with a world mythology rather than a direct link to a specific religion.

I wonder, would there be a touch of the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah there also?