High Elves and the Balrogs

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

I know the Balrogs were of the Maiar, but it seems unbelievable that a mere high elf like Ecthelion and Glorfindel could've slain them (more unbelievable is Echthelion who was able to slay 3 Balrogs!). Why is this? Were the maia that joined Morgoth extremely weak that a high elf can slay them? I don't understand because Balrogs are great spellcasters and just totally on a different level. Would this mean that someone like Galadriel could take on that Balrog in Moria even without Nenya? 'Cause it would make sense since she's a high elf and the greatest next to Feanor. And where do the spirits of the Balrog go when they die?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

I know the Balrogs were of the Maiar, but it seems unbelievable that a mere high elf like Ecthelion and Glorfindel could've slain them (more unbelievable is Echthelion who was able to slay 3 Balrogs!).

Why would it be so unbelievable? After all, Fingolfin was able to face in single combat even Melkor, and inflict of him a permanent wound. Feanor alone fought undismayed for long with several balrogs.

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

And where do the spirits of the Balrog go when they die?

Myths Transformed estimates that they would be reduced to impotence (or at least those that practiced procreation).

Originally Posted by Orcs, Myths Transformed, HoME X

In any case is it likely or possible that even the least of the Maiar would become Orcs? Yes: both outside Arda and in it, before the fall of Utumno. Melkor had corrupted many spirits — some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs; but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force. When released they would, of course, like Sauron, be 'damned': i.e. reduced to impotence, infinitely recessive: still hating but unable more and more to make it effective physically (or would not a very dwindled dead Orc-state be a poltergeist?).

[Galin]

Also, Ecthelion was not (likely) to slay three Balrogs in my opinion.

Tolkien seemed to be thinking of reducing the number of Balrogs to at most seven. The earlier numbers of The Book of Lost Tales (and specific numbers killed therein) refer to an earlier version of Balrogs.

High numbers persisted even in the texts of the early 1950s. The timing according to Christopher Tolkien (despite that he can't be certain about it) seems to be: Tolkien wrote Annals of Aman (AAm) and Grey Annals (GA) at about the same time, early 1950's (lots of Balrogs in both). JRRT expresses in a later letter that he intends to get copies made of copyable material and has copies made by a typist, of AAm, LQS, GA (with carbon copies), dating about 1958. He makes a marginal note on a typescript of AAm -- he revises 'host' of Balrogs and explains the reduced numbers in the note.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Why would it be so unbelievable? After all, Fingolfin was able to face in single combat even Melkor, and inflict of him a permanent wound. Feanor alone fought undismayed for long with several balrogs

Well, you know, Gandalf was a Maia. He was killed in battling with just one Balrog. Maia are suppose to be above the Eldar (that is why it's so unbelievable).

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Well, you know, Gandalf was a Maia. He was killed in battling with just one Balrog. Maia are suppose to be above the Eldar (that is why it's so unbelievable).

The physical manifestation of a Balrog could obviously sustain damage (Gandalf uses the word 'smote' as in strike when speaking of how he defeated Durin's Bane); therefore, it is entirely possible for an Elf of Ecthelion's stature to defeat a Balrog, or more than one given favorable circumstances. Consider also that Ecthelion was an exceptional Noldo of Valinor in full flower of youth, whereas Gandalf, even as a Maia, was constrained in the mortal body of an old man (however vigorous). Remember as well that Morgoth himself was wounded badly by Fingolfin, and Gil-Galad and Elendil defeated Sauron, and one would have to admit that Morgoth and Sauron were indeed more powerful than a Balrog.

[Raynor]

When they realised they are facing a balrog, Gandalf deplored that he was already weary, from the fight with the orcs and his contest of magic at the door of the Mazarbul Chamber.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It's also worth noting that none of the three survived the encounter.

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

It's also worth noting that none of the three survived the encounter.

aye thats a solid point, but what about Rog in the fall of Gondolin, apparently he and his fellows defeated a few of them there... it doesn't specify that they died via the Balrog.

I never really dwelled on the fact that all the key charcters that fought them died - Glorfindel died in a similar circumstance to Gandalf, in that he was dragged down. Ecthelion was already mortally wounded when he took on Gothmog, and died in the fountain with him - Nearly brought a tear to my eye reading that for the first time!

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

I know the Balrogs were of the Maiar, but it seems unbelievable that a mere high elf like Ecthelion and Glorfindel could've slain them (more unbelievable is Echthelion who was able to slay 3 Balrogs!). Why is this? Were the maia that joined Morgoth extremely weak that a high elf can slay them? I don't understand because Balrogs are great spellcasters and just totally on a different level. Would this mean that someone like Galadriel could take on that Balrog in Moria even without Nenya? 'Cause it would make sense since she's a high elf and the greatest next to Feanor. And where do the spirits of the Balrog go when they die?

Perhaps wings weakened them, a physiological defect. After all, the energy involved in flapping them and flying must deflect from the energy/power available to produce fire and bat around arms.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Perhaps wings weakened them, a physiological defect. After all, the energy involved in flapping them and flying must deflect from the energy/power available to produce fire and bat around arms.

I lol'ed at this one, haha.

[Lalaith]

No average human woman has ever been given any recognition

Hmm...I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, but if you mean what I think you do, then let me say three words to you....Joan of Arc. Led a national army before she was seventeen...good enough?

Anyway, I wonder if part of the problem in these discussions isn't that they are taking place among people who are used to the logic of computer games. This weapon plus that armour plus so many power points and that experience level gives you strength to defeat this monster....
I'm not sure how useful this very logical, gaming-type viewpoint is to understanding Tolkien's world. It was a literary creation, which as many here have pointed out, underwent many changes over the years. So one minute you can have a High Elf defeating a Balrog in just a short battle, and in another, a mighty maia like Gandalf take a week to defeat one in underground combat.
Why - because it makes a good story, I suppose, and Tolkien was a storyteller.

But that is not to say that Tolkien's power hierarchies are not intriguing. How, I always wondered, did a mere Maia like Melian create a stronghold that could keep out Melkor, mightiest of the Valar? Because Tolkien willed it so, is the obvious answer, but still, it did always puzzle me....

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Anyway, I wonder if part of the problem in these discussions isn't that they are taking place among people who are used to the logic of computer games. This weapon plus that armour plus so many power points and that experience level gives you strength to defeat this monster....
I'm not sure how useful this very logical, gaming-type viewpoint is to understanding Tolkien's world. It was a literary creation, which as many here have pointed out, underwent many changes over the years. So one minute you can have a High Elf defeating a Balrog in just a short battle, and in another, a mighty maia like Gandalf take a week to defeat one in underground combat.

I thought about that too, though I think in this discussion it was not as evident from the start, so I didn't bring it up. When you look up, unless you yourself get dragged down in thinking in these "level lines", the question is well posed: the Balrogs are something - and that is clear enough from the Legendarium - completely qualitatively different from the Elves, they are Maiar, Ainur. This is evident and everyone who thinks about someone who was with Eru performing on the Music can be somehow puzzled about all this. I think it's about realizing the different story changes, as you said, and also - very importantly, I think - realizing what the "coming to flesh" in Arda means: that as they are once there, you are technically as capable of slaying a Balrog as a human (no high "lives" here - though he probably is tougher than common man, there are mainly other things that prevent you from killing him). I saw the "game-thinking" problem emerging in many different threads, but particularly in this case I think our problems lie somewhere else. Good you brought it up, though, as it allows people to realize if they are thinking like that, preventing possible misunderstandings.

[Lalaith]

realizing what the "coming to flesh" in Arda means:

Yes, absolutely, I think that's a very interesting point. Did Gandalf's corporeal form, as an old man, lay "heavier" on him than Melian's, do you think, despite the fact that she bore a child while a physical, Middle-Earth presence?
The Valar and the Maia took physical forms while in Valinor, also. Were these forms somehow different to those they took when not there? Is there anything in HoME about this?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Yes, absolutely, I think that's a very interesting point. Did Gandalf's corporeal form, as an old man, lay "heavier" on him than Melian's, do you think, despite the fact that she bore a child while a physical, Middle-Earth presence?

Well, I am not a female, so I cannot judge whether it's more exhausting for the body to give a birth to a child or not to, but be much more aged.

Nevertheless, Melian, I believe, had her "Valinorean" form on her (cf. below) when she met Elwë(is this where your train of thoughts has been going?), so maybe here is the answer to what you wondered about her powers like the Girdle and so on. Also, she was not intentionally bound by the body - that was her own body as she chose it (unlike the Istari, who were given it to reduce their own powers not to contest Sauron by force) or even the Balrogs, who were in fact "forced to hold Melkor's standards", so to say.

Originally Posted by Lalaith

The Valar and the Maia took physical forms while in Valinor, also. Were these forms somehow different to those they took when not there? Is there anything in HoME about this?

As I foreshadowed earlier, I believe that surely they were different; as mentioned above at least with the Istari who took the forms of old men for their journey to Middle-Earth, but surely were not like that back there. The difference would be that probably mostly, in ME the Maiar were limited in their forms - in Valinor they could take on whatever form they wish (the one they chose when coming down to the world). The "dark" Maiar, like the Balrogs, or even Sauron later, as it is well known after some time lost their ability to change their forms and literally degraded as "imprisoned" in the flesh.

I'm not much of a HoME-runner, so to say, but considering the appearance in Valinor, at least I remember in UT Gandalf (Olórin) is mentioned:

Originally Posted by Istari

And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council

and in the Silmarillion, resp. Valaquenta:

Originally Posted by Valaquenta

But of Olórin that tale does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness.

(emhasise mine) Taking in mind the context of the latter, I'd say the form of Elf refers to Olórin during his stay at Valinor, and not Middle-Earth. The interesting thing is that he was "clad in grey", still, on both sides of the Sea. I'd also like to see what happened when he returned at the end of the Third Age: if he kept his form of Gandalf the White, or changed into something else (Olórin the Gray, Olórin the White...).

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Hmm...I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, but if you mean what I think you do, then let me say three words to you....Joan of Arc. Led a national army before she was seventeen...good enough?

I think it was fairly obvious i was refering to Tolkien's work actually... off the top of my head only Eowyn and Morwen were ever depicted in a 'powerful' role - that is ofcourse in reference to humans, there are quite a few Elvish women depicted in such a light also.

Off topic, Joan of Arc only co-led the army i think you'll find with a certain Duke. Furthermore she was burned at the stake for heresy before she managed to finalise her aims - that said, she is an extraordinary example of female leadership, being so young and also, being a woman.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Hammerhand

I think it was fairly obvious i was refering to Tolkien's work actually... off the top of my head only Eowyn and Morwen were ever depicted in a 'powerful' role - that is ofcourse in reference to humans, there are quite a few Elvish women depicted in such a light also.

Here's another: Haleth of the Haladin was a woman considered the equal of any man in battle and led her people courageously.

Originally Posted by Hammerhand

Off topic, Joan of Arc only co-led the army i think you'll find with a certain Duke. Furthermore she was burned at the stake for heresy before she managed to finalise her aims - that said, she is an extraordinary example of female leadership, being so young and also, being a woman.

She did complete her primary aim, the reversal of France's fortunes in the 100 Year's War and almost single-handedly had Charles VII crowned king of France at Rheims. Without her vision and valor, the ineffectual Armagnacs would have eventually crumbled against the English/Burgundian alliance. As far as her heresy trial, it was a political sham, a mockery of justice that circumvented numerous ecclesiastical court procedures. The heresy charges were nullified by Pope Calixtus a mere 25 years after her death (astounding in the fact that the Catholic Church usually takes centuries to overturn previous rulings -- as in the case of Galileo).

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

She did complete her primary aim, the reversal of France's fortunes in the 100 Year's War and almost single-handedly had Charles VII crowned king of France at Rheims. Without her vision and valor, the ineffectual Armagnacs would have eventually crumbled against the English/Burgundian alliance. As far as her heresy trial, it was a political sham, a mockery of justice that circumvented numerous ecclesiastical court procedures. The heresy charges were nullified by Pope Calixtus a mere 25 years after her death (astounding in the fact that the Catholic Church usually takes centuries to overturn previous rulings -- as in the case of Galileo).

You just proved what i said lol... almost being a key-word. Alot of what Joan of Arc achieved is hypothetically speaking, "would have" and so on. She did not achieve everything that she set out to do. I'm not trying to make her appear weaker because she is a woman, i'm just trying to prove a point. She was never granted full military control, she had to confer with the Duke of [insert] before any major decisions were made.

She was burned at the stake, whether it was anulled or not, the "mockery" was successful and the mighty Joan of Arc was made a martyr... get over it.