Morgoth and Doriath

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

I don't understand why Morgoth didn't just invade the Kingdom of Menegroth. It wasn't like Melian was ultra powerful. Besides, an army of Balrogs and a couple of Orcs and even Glaurung could breached inside Dorith. Melian wouldn't be able to stay the Balrogs. She got lucky with Ungoliant..

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

What do you mean by "she got lucky with Ungoliant" ?

I doubt that Glaurung would be able to pass the gridle of Melian, in fact the only one I am sure could do so is Morgoth. Melian just seem like a very powerful Maia. She mannaged to lift the spell of Morgoth from Hurin and that does not seem like an easy task, I doubt that any other could have done it. (amongst the Noldor and Edain in Beleriand)

I only remember two ever passing the gridle and that was Beren which Melian predicted would do so and then Carcharoth, but I don't think that Carcharot would have been able to do so with out the Silmaril.

Maybe a host of Balrogs could have entered, but I doubt that Morgoth would risk an assault has he would have had very little knowledge about the power of Doriath.

[arcticstorm]

The question that arises though is did Morgoth even need to invade them. Despite everything, i do not think Morgoth was a fool. Look at it like this, Morgoth manipulated Feanor to cause him to raise his hand against Fingolfin and thus get banished. Afterward, Morgoth's lust led him to steal the silmarills knowing full well that it would cause Feanor to leave Valinor and rebel against the Valar. If the teleri were to follow Feanor, it would have sertved his purposes by having more rebel against the valar, but since they did not, his purposes were served even better.

The Noldor's slaughtering of the Teleri drove a wedge between the sons of Feanor and the kingdom of Thingol, thus causing the isolation of Doriath. Morgoth did not need to invade Menengroth to achieve his purposes, all he had to do was keep them out of the fight until his victory over the Noldor was guaranteed. In a war it is always a good strategy to let the neutrals remain neutral until your enemy is dealt with. You do not want to attack someone who is going to sit out anyway unless victory is guaranteed.

It is even better to use someone else to do your dirty work for you, and this is what Melkor did by manipulating Hurin, and then setting off the snowball that would lead to the dwarven attack. He also knew that when the girdle was broke, the sons of Feanor would have no choice but to take the silmarill from them by force. When you can get your enemies to fight eachother, you have no need to use your own manpower.

[Raynor]

In Myths Transformed, HoME X, we learn that Melkor's purpose became utter destruction. To that end, he was impeded by the Noldor (first and foremost), and secondly, by the Girdle. In that sense, he did need to destroy the girdle. I would also have issues with seeing Melkor as intently driving forward the disputes between the elves, or with the dwarves. He sown seeds, and they gave fruits, rather independently, as they did even after his death (as the last paragraph of the Silm. tells us

Originally Posted by Of the voyage of Earendil and the war of wrath, Silmarillion

Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.

In the Silmarillion, we even know that he was surprised to see the noldor coming to knock on his door; I also doubt he planned or foresaw the fight between the dwarves and Thingol, if that is what you referred to.

[Lindale]

Melkor is a good strategist, but he isn't the best. He did achieve to sow discord amongst the Noldor under the very nose of the Valar, and that for me is either a huge feat or the Valar were just too stupid. And the thing with Hurin and his kin. However I think there are things Melkor overlooked, like Beren and Luthien, and there are stuff that he didn't plan that just worked for him, like the Kinslaying of Feanor and the curse and other discords among the Noldor that followed.

He saw that he didn't need to attack Melian, as Melian did nothing to oppose him other than guard her realm, Melian was no threat to him. I mean, before the time of the Noldor the Elves of Doriath didn't go to open war or march against Angband. And what purpose would Melkor get? He probably foresaw the discord that shall follow the Kinslaying, as a proof that he still had a measure of wisdom. If he attacked Melian and Doriath that would be a good reason for the Doriath Sindar to forge an alliance with the Noldor even just for the sake of having a common great enemy, either if he attacked before or after the Noldor came, because I think that it would take a lot to destroy all the Sindar--he still had only orcs and no dragons till after the Noldor arrived.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

You might be right that Morgoth did not fear Melian and Thingol and that they where no real threat to him, but I am confident that he would eventually seek to destroy Doriath with military force if it had stood long enough.

As I understand it Morgoth did not only wager war against those that where a threat to him, he sought to defeat and enslave the whole world and even thought Doriath could not challenge him it was too great to be ignored.

[Kuruharan]

I think Doriath was probably next on Morgoth's hit list by the time it fell, if for no other reason than he'd run out of other targets.

As for why he didn't do it before, he didn't really have an opportunity. There were several kingdoms in between him and Doriath.

[Macalaure]

I think it's interesting that Morgoth did wage war against Doriath, as we see from the many battles over Dimbar, but still never dared to attack the Girdle.

We know that the Girdle could only be breached by someone of greater power than Melian. This rules dragons out and leaves Sauron and the Balrogs.

Beyond lay the wilderness of Dungortheb, where the sorcery of Sauron and the power of Melian came together, and horror and madness walked.
~ Of Beren and Lúthien

This gives me the impression that Melian's power and Sauron's sorcery is approximately equally strong. So, even though we would consider Sauron to be more powerful overall, it is doubtful to me whether he would have been able to break through the Girdle with his sorcery. It's not overall power which counts, but specific powers. Maybe Sauron would have been able to, maybe not, but I don't think it would be certain. We also know how patient Morgoth is and how calculating with his resources (except Orcs). He wouldn't have risked his most mighty servant in an attack of questionable success. Gothmog and the balrogs are lesser Maiar than Sauron (esp. in sorcery), so an attack of them would be at least as much of a risk.

In the end, Morgoth would probably have had to break the Girdle by himself, but he was extremely reluctant to even leave Angband. I don't think he would have dared to, unless Doriath was the only realm left in all Beleriand. Morgoth basically restricted the power of Doriath to Doriath itself, to the effect that he didn't have to fear it anymore. This way he was able to delay the problem to whenever he felt the time had come to deal with it.


A minor tangent:

Originally Posted by Rune

I only remember two ever passing the gridle and that was Beren which Melian predicted would do so and then Carcharoth, but I don't think that Carcharot would have been able to do so with out the Silmaril.

You're right, but it was not the power of the Silmaril that enabled him.

Nothing hindered him, and the might of Melian upon the borders of the land stayed him not; for fate drove him, and the power of the Silmaril that he bore to his torment.
~Of Beren and Lúthien

It was not the Silmaril that increased Carcharoths power, even though it made him much more frightful than before, but because he carried the Silmaril it became his fate to enter Doriath.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

We know that the Girdle could only be breached by someone of greater power than Melian. This rules dragons out

Hm, is there any specific reason for that?

Originally Posted by Macalaure

You're right, but it was not the power of the Silmaril that enabled him.

It was not the Silmaril that increased Carcharoths power, even though it made him much more frightful than before, but because he carried the Silmaril it became his fate to enter Doriath.

In my opinion, this quote cuts both ways. It can even be interpreted that fate simply "directed" Carcaroth's direction/intention, while it was only the silmaril that increased his power.

[Rikae]

Nothing hindered him, and the might of Melian upon the borders of the land stayed him not; for fate drove him, and the power of the Silmaril that he bore to his torment.
~Of Beren and Lúthien

Well, the use of "and" implies that both fate and the Silmaril were necessary, if I read this correctly...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I never said that the silmaril increased his powers. . .it increased his furry no doubt.

What I ment was: Iif Carcharoth decided to go for a walk on a sunny afternoon, enjoying the lovely weather and the birds singing and he by chance eneded up at Doriath . . ..then I do not think that he could enter.

There was only one time he could enter and that was when he had the silmaril in his stomache. . . .I belive that the fate quote referes as much to the fate of the silmaril and Beren as it does to Cacharot, or rather that these cannot be seperated.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Hm, is there any specific reason for that?

Well, to be honest, I couldn't think of any quote from the text which explicitly states that. It's just hard to imagine that a dragon is more powerful than a Maia. At least not one of Melian's dimension.

In my opinion, this quote cuts both ways. It can even be interpreted that fate simply "directed" Carcaroth's direction/intention, while it was only the silmaril that increased his power.

You might be right. I just noticed that, when Beren enters Doriath, Tolkien uses the word "doom" while here he uses "fate".
But this would mean, that by carrying a Silmaril alone a person obtains more power than Melian has. I mean, sure, the Silmarils contain the light of the two trees and were hallowed by Varda, but nevertheless they remain the work of only an Elf.
I think Rikae is right by pointing out the "and".

(edit: cross-posted like crazy)