THIS exists in M-E?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

If I asked you if you could name me any technically advanced things in Middle-Earth, and you stopped and thought for a second, you will surely come upon something. And this is what I would like to debate in this thread. (I don't know if this has been debated before, it's quite hard to find something like that, but I think it wasn't.)

So, you can just stop for a few seconds and try to remember something from LotR which speaks about (or implies) existence of a thing we wouldn't expect in Middle-Earth from its "medieval" setting, but which, indeed, is there. We might start a discussion about it here - where do you think it came from, who invented it, for what purpose etc.

However, I would like to start now with pointing out especially one thing, which is not shown explicitely in the text, it is a very very modern thing, a thing which would be probably among the last you would've expected in Middle-Earth. But the text, written by honorable Mr. Baggins himself, clearly indicates that such a thing did exist in Middle-Earth and was known to the Hobbits (which might come from the knowledge given by Elves or whoever else). And don't think I picked it up from the Hobbit or some other source which is, indeed, by many considered to be (for whatever reason) something of a less value or even "non-canonical". But the thing I would like to mention now does not allow any doubts about being in-canon, because it comes from the very heart of canon which no one (I hope) will put to doubts: Lord of the Rings, Fellowship of the Ring. And it is the first one I would like to discuss, because... it's really quite, you know, discussion-provoking. Now you ask what is this controversial thing, which, according to the Red Book of Westmarch, indeed existed in Middle-Earth?

It is an express train.

Hey, indeed! I am not joking. Fellowship of the Ring, chapter 1 "A Long Expected Party": "The dragon passed like an express train, turned a somersault, and burst over Bywater with a deafening explosion."

It's undeniable. Something lead Frodo to liken the dragon (firework) to an express train. Right? This means Frodo must have known express trains. Right? Now we have to know only from where. It might be that he didn't have the experience with express trains himself: he might have just heard about them and found this an adequate thing to liken to the dragon (although, the fact that he uses it this way seems to imply that he had own experience with the effects an express train produces). Which, also, implies that there must have been quite well knowledge about the subject among the readers to whom the Red Book was intended (hobbits, mainly?), enough for the author to expect them that they will know what an express train is when they read it. Since we are not told anywhere else in the Red Book about express trains, we wouldn't expect the knowledge coming from here (though the RB was surely an ultimate source of knowledge at least among the earlier generations of post-war hobbits).

So, the starting points on this subject are:

1. Frodo knew what an express train is (likely from personal experience).
2. The intended readers (i.e. hobbits) were supposed to have the knowledge of express trains as well (also most likely from personal experience).

Now on to possible conclusions. Thus far, I'd like to present several theories, which may be later upgraded and to which I would like you to react, or even come up with different ones.
Remember please, this is a serious conversation, really, and I want to come to a serious conclusion on the matter. So, be serious, so am I.

Theory#1
There was a railway in the Shire.
This theory has several pros, mainly:

• It explains well the knowledge of the Hobbits about what an express train is,
• it seems logical in the view that the hobbits will still have the knowledge of the subject even after several generations, see below

Against this theory could speak several points, namely:

• As far as we know, there is no railway on the map of the Shire,
• as well as it is not mentioned anywhere in the books. One would suppose that e.g. for such a wealthy hobbit as Mr. Baggins was, it would be no problem to send his possessions from Bag End to Crickhollow by the railway (at least to the Bridge, one could presume that a railway will most likely go with the Eastern Road. Though this counter-argument is not as strong since we can't know for sure where the railway was).
• We know hobbits didn't did not understand or like machines more complicated than a forge-bellows, a water-mill, or a hand-loom (FotR, Prologue).

Especially the last speaks very much against relevance of this theory. Against the other counter-arguments, there is for example the possibility that since we are not shown the map of western Shire, a railway could as well exist just there, which would elliminate both the first and the second counter-argument. However, not as well with the third one.

Theory#2
There wasn't a railway in the Shire, but some other kin in contact with the hobbits (most logically the Blue Mountain Dwarves) possessed it. This theory is better in something than the first one, though in some other things it has critical flaws. Pros:

• If it were the Dwarves who had it, the railway could run underground in most part so it wouldn't have to be included on maps in general
• we know that Dwarves liked to make things like that, and we even know (from the Hobbit) that the Dwarves actually mined coal - which is surely a good fuel for the (steam) trains. Such a thing will surely come handy to transport things from the mines to the surface;
• the hobbits could have good knowledge about the trains from the Dwarven travelers.

Cons:

• The Dwarves are generally quite secretive folk, so why would they tell the Hobbits? And, why would the Hobbits want to listen about such a "mechanical" thing? (the same problem as #1) Frodo, well, maybe - but others?
• Even if the hobbits knew, the knowledge will probably soon be forgotten after several generations (like many things in the hobbit community).
• The hobbits, including Frodo, will probably never see the train for themselves. Frodo, as far as we know, was only in one Dwarven city: Moria, and that was deserted and we have been told of no rail in it.

Theory#3
Frodo knew the train from his personal experience on the quest, or heard about it in lands far away. This theory is the best from the logical point of view in my opinion, though it still has some holes in it.
Pros:

• In the lands far away, train could have existed (in Mordor, for example? Or in Rhun or Harad and Frodo just heard about it?). This will explain very well why the train is not mentioned anywhere else.
• It will explain why no kin uses the train (being it surely a good means of transport). The knowledge is hidden among savage people from distant lands.

Cons:

• The readers (hobbits) wouldn't know what a train is, only from Frodo's own (possibly other) tales (though it might have such an impact on them - probably fearful - that they'll remember it and e.g. scare their children "if you are naughty, the train will come for you", so the idea of the train stays in the memory of the kin - even maybe in a slightly swayed meaning, which would still - and maybe even more - fit with the usage of the comparation to a dragon. In hobbit mythology, the two things might eventually become one).

So, that's for the start - my three starting theories. I would like to hear if any of you support any of these theories, or add some own thoughts to them, or even have completely different theories about what it was like. I'm welcoming any constructive thoughts, or even just opinions on the matter.

[Son of Númenor]

Frodo isn't the narrator, Tolkien is, so it cannot be assumed Frodo had seen or knew anything about trains. And despite the narrative ploy of author as hobbit-historian, Tolkien's intended audience was modern humans. He started writing LotR as a sequel to the Hobbit, so it's not surpring that he would carry on with the tone of his first book and reference things that young children could relate to.

At least there is nothing in the Rivendell chapters about Aragorn being faster than speeding bullet.

[davem]

Poor Bilbo couldn't bear it any longer. At may never return he began to feel a shriek coming up inside, and very soon it burst out like the whistle of an engine coming out of a tunnel 'An Unexpected Party' The Hobbit

Interestingly both the train/engine references appear in the first chapter of each book. I would have to agree with SoN, though. Clearly this is the translator speaking, not the 'author' (ie Bilbo/Frodo). Rateliff makes the point that TH (& by extention The New Hobbit, at least in the beginning) was written with a specific audience in mind. we know that the Tolkien boys loved trains - both real (CT's reminiscence of sitting on the White Horse Hill with his father, watching a train steam past in the valley. CT loved it, but says his father felt it to be 'an intrusion' ) & toy (cf the references to Hornby train sets in the Father Christmas Letters).

I think this is the most logical explanation. Tolkien was using references that would appeal to his audience. Rateliff also makes the point about the prevalence of bears in Tolkien's works (TH, FCL, Mr Bliss) & the fact that all his children had teddy bears (Priscilla at one point owning 60 of them). Hence, bears appear in his stories.

Love the idea though....

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Gentlemen (especially SoN), this was exactly what I didn't want to see in this topic. Everyone can just sweep interesting topic off of the table like this. But I am placing serious statement in front of you, evidence from the translation of the Red Book of Westmarch, and you cannot deny the train is mentioned there. So I'm expecting topic-advancing entries further.

However, I have to say I am very grateful of davem's find of the quote from the Hobbit, since it really nicely contributes to the discussion. The discovery of the entry implies that not just Frodo, but even Bilbo - the author of the Hobbit's tale - knew the train. This means already Bilbo was writing his book with knowledge of this, which slightly undermines hypothesis #3.

Another valuable bit of information is that we learn the train was actually riding through some tunnel. So, Bilbo must have had experience with - or knowledge about - a train riding through a tunnel. Wherever the railway in Middle-Earth was situated, it must have been probably in a place where high hills or mountains were present as a terrain feature. I would dare to say that this indeed speaks much for the theory #2, also because as far as we know Dwarves were the ones to delve tunnels (the train couldn't just go through some sort of natural cave). The only problem would be, how the hobbits learned about it?

[Boromir88]

Gentlemen (especially SoN), this was exactly what I didn't want to see in this topic. Everyone can just sweep interesting topic off of the table like this.~Legate

I'm going to agree with SoN on this one. I wouldn't call it 'sweeping an interesting topic' under the table, I would say in this particular instance with the 'express train' you are looking too far into the quote and overthinking it. (Just my opinion though ).

For whatever reason it was technological advancement in Middle-earth is pretty much stagnant compared to our own technological advancements. Centuries and whole millenias pass by in Tolkien's story, yet there is very little advancement in technology. For instance, chainmail never progressed to plate mail (all that we see is Imrahil has 'metal vambrances'). There are no crossbows...etc. Besides the appearance of gunpowder (in Gandalf's fireworks and Saruman's 'bombs') advancement in technology (in Middle-earth) is virtually stagnant.

Tolkien was very specific about what he wanted in his story...he endlessly criticized Zimmerman in Letter 210 about adding things in his story that did not belong (tomatoes in the Shire, glass windows...and so on), and for whatever reason kept advancement in technology to pretty much nil.

So, as far as an express train is concerned, I agree with davem and SoN, and the idea that there was an express train somewhere in Middle-earth is just a 'bridge too far' and you're looking too far into things. As the quotes are not literal but figuritive to set up imagery. Just as there are times (in The Lord of the Rings and his other stories) when Tolkien is having his characters 'speak' to us, there are times when the author is speaking to us. If Frodo (or Bilbo) said such and such was like an 'express train' than I can see there being some argument, but the bottom line is both quotes appear in the narration of the author, not the characters.

With that being said, that doesn't mean this discussion has to end, because there are things that exist in Middle-earth that appear in two very different places at different times in our world. For some examples, how about clocks in Middle-earth? Or tea-time? (and doing a search you can find great threads on both) For those are both quite odd and out of place. Middle-earth was not set at one specific period of time according to our own 'real history.' It is a mesh, a mixing pot, of numerous items, things, cultural beliefs...etc which appear at varying times in our history. And Tolkien was quite specific about what belonged in Middle-earth, and what didn't, and he virtually kept advancement in Middle-earth stagnant.

I just think this example of the express train is being read into a bit too much. That doesn't mean this can't be (and isn't already) an interesting thread.

[The Saucepan Man]

If one were to seek to explain the train references in a manner consistent with the 'Translator's Conceit', then one might speculate that this was a phrase inserted by the 'translator' of the Red Book of Westmarch in place of a phrase which would have no meaning to his audience, or alternatively that it was an example of 'translator's' licence.

I am not sure that this fully explains all the anachronistic references, however, particularly those included in The Hobbit and the early chapters of LotR set in The Shire. The Shire is portrayed in a manner redolent of English Edwardian society and is in many ways at odds with the medieval feel of the remainder of Middle-earth (or at least the Mannish domains). Hence, we have mantle clocks, umbrellas, pocket handkerchiefs, waistcoats and even footballs (the latter three, I suppose, not being entirely out of place in a medieval setting), and probably others that I have overlooked. It might also (and indeed has been) argued that tobacco, potatos and coffee are also misplaced in a Western Middle-earth supposedly modelled on Western Europe (although this could be explained in a number of ways). There is a thread around here devoted to anachronisms, and another devoted to coffee and other New World imports - I will see if I can root them out.

If, on the other hand, there were actually express trains existing within Third Age Middle-earth, I would look either to the Dwarves or the Dark Lord (perhaps developed from the flying mechanical war-engines that Morgoth empoyed in the assault on Gondolin).

[Estelyn Telcontar]

What an interesting topic, Legate! You are certainly entitled to take seriously any anachronisms metioned in the books on the basis of Tolkien's own "translator conceit" and Red Book concept. After all, though he made a number of corrections and revisions in later editions, he chose to leave such references in the stories! Isn't it interesting that we have more difficulty accepting an express train in the context of Middle-earth than talking dragons?!

Under this assumption, I am inclined to agree with your idea that such inventions came from the Dwarves. [I have explored that idea with another anachronism, Bilbo's clock, in my fan fiction, but won't interrupt this train of thought with a new one right now. (Pun unintentional but appropriate!)] The underground mining would have been an excellent and fairly secret location, and as you said, the coal as a fuel source was there, as well as metals for tracks.

How did the Hobbits get to know about it? Well, dwarves travelled through the Shire frequently - and Bree, for that matter! - on their way to and from the Blue Mountains, so some Hobbits will have traded with them and perhaps gotten to know them more closely. I would imagine that none of them ever experienced a train personally, but heard about them and spread the word to other Hobbits as a legend. It could well have been that they were the bogeymen for little Hobbit children, as you said!

I think that the cons are too strong to have allowed for a train in the Shire, and I doubt that there would have been any in enemy lands, as the Fellowship travels through those countries, with their route being documented quite extensively. But who knows what tunnels could have been hidden in Moria and other Dwarven fasts?!