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05-24-2007, 10:47 AM | #1 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
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Virtues in Middle-Earth
When you stumble upon the word "virtue" in LotR or Silmarillion, it will be probably used in the meaning of "power" or "strength". However, what I would like to explore in this thread is the look on virtues in Middle-Earth in global, in a slightly different meaning. Virtues in the meaning of qualities, of certain good qualities of personality, of certain qualities which are prized or maybe even desirable for people (Men, Elves, Dwarves...) living in Middle-Earth. Which virtues are these? Are these "universal" virtues, applicable for every person, whether he/she is an Elf or Dwarf or Man? Or are there just some of them prized/desirable only in certain cultural context? And, are they simply prized, or is there something pointing to the fact that such a virtue might be desirable for every individual in the society? Is there some virtue like that which should be desirable in all Middle-Earth, at every person (whether he in the end reaches it or not)? Are there other meanings to reach the virtues than just by self-discipline, for example, the people being "shaped" by some external force? This is just the basic sphere of questions which could be debated in this topic. I hope this is not going to be a "buried" theme and that it would interest at least someone enough to join this discussion
EDIT: Wow! 900th post! That would be nice if it really started a discussion!
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
05-24-2007, 11:09 AM | #2 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hominum que contente mundique huius et cupido
Posts: 181
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Hmmm... An interseting question, but I think I'd say they are the "universal" or Christian virtues in this case, especially given Tolkien’s Catholic faith, they would most likey have to be. (Darn this is gona get complicated). I would highly doubt that they anything to do with say for example Buddhist virtues:
(Noble Eightfold Path) Right Viewpoint - Realizing the Four Noble Truths (samyag-dṛṣṭi, sammā-diṭṭhi) Right Values - Commitment to mental and ethical growth in moderation (samyak-saṃkalpa, sammā-saṅkappa) Right Speech - One speaks in a non hurtful, not exaggerated, truthful way (samyag-vāc, sammā-vācā ) Right Actions - Wholesome action, avoiding action that would do harm (samyak-karmānta, sammā-kammanta) Right Livelihood - One's job does not harm in any way oneself or others; directly or indirectly (weapon maker, abortionist, drug dealer, etc.) (samyag-ājīva, sammā-ājīva} Right Effort - One makes an effort to improve (samyag-vyāyāma, sammā-vāyāma) Right Mindfulness - Mental ability to see things for what they are with clear consciousness (samyak-smṛti, sammā-sati) Right Meditation - State where one reaches enlightenment and the ego has disappeared (samyak-samādhi, sammā-samādhi Doesn't look very likely. But that could just be me. ~Beleg σωφροσύνη (sōphrosynē ) φρόνησις (phronēsis) ἀνδρεία (andreia) δικαιοσύνη (dikaiosynē ) -EDIT 200th post! And it only took me two years
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War is not the answer, War is the question and the answer is yes Quis ut Deus Last edited by Beleg Cuthalion; 05-24-2007 at 11:23 AM. |
05-24-2007, 11:44 AM | #3 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
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Quote:
Okay, so why not start with the "classic" as you brought it here (I hope I got right how they are called in English.): σωφροσύνη (moderation) φρόνησις ([practical] wisdom, prudence - in the original meaning of the word) ανδρεία (bravery, fortitude) δικαιοσύνη (justice - in the personal meaning) Can you name any passage, show where these are mentioned in Tolkien's books (or probably not named explicitely, but shown on some example. And are they just valued, or desirable? Any evidence on that? And does it differ in places/cultures - for example, does it affect Dwarves as well as Elves? I'm not speaking of Orcs now, though even here it might be interesting - maybe even more...) Could you subscribe each of these to some person? Could you name someone who would be a "good representative" for one of them? Could you find someone who is a "good representative" to all of them? (We might widen the range of virtues later.)
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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05-24-2007, 12:12 PM | #4 | |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hominum que contente mundique huius et cupido
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I think I'm in over my head...
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*Thinking he shouldn’t have gotten himself into this...* ~Beleg
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War is not the answer, War is the question and the answer is yes Quis ut Deus Last edited by Beleg Cuthalion; 05-24-2007 at 12:29 PM. |
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05-24-2007, 02:15 PM | #5 | ||||||||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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Bravery.
I think there is a good deal of truth in you saying that there is an unquestionable influence in connection with the fact the inhabitants of ME are closer to the knowledge of their gods. Though one might argue that at several moments this knowledge is not as evident, it is still somewhat "far yet close, close yet far, away, but still present". But that's not the topic, anyway. Still I think there are slight cultural differences in something, for example the Dwarves are in some ways very different from Elves. Hobbits are in many ways different from normal Men. And so on.
As for the examples - I think we can find quite easily some. I will start with andreia, bravery, since I think it is the most evident and most often directly mentioned virtue in ME. I also think it is generally valued very high (as it will be shown later, when you read this) among different kins. So, let's start. For example, Boromir is prized by the Gondorian Men as being brave - and not just by them, also by Aragorn, and by Frodo when he speaks to Faramir, by Pippin when he speaks to Denethor. I think bravery is one of the most valued virtues among the men of Númenor and their descendants (this is represented mostly in connection with the word "valiant"). I'm not so sure about the Elves - where among Númenoreans, it seems to certainly take very high post; among the Elves, though still prized, I think there are more important virtues to them. But when we are speaking of it, let's focus on bravery now - for example in the Beleriand Wars, and especially among the battling hosts, it was prized by the Elves among themselves, and they also appreciated it very much at Men: Quote:
Interestingly (and funnily enough), Merry, when he is brought back by Nob at night from being knocked unconscious by a Rider's Black Breath, speaks something very similar to Aristotle's classification. Notice also how Strider reacts: Quote:
First, we know that the Hobbits didn't like to merge much with the "outer world" and were happy enough to be left alone. We also know that if anything happened, the thing they liked the most to do was escape. But that's not all! There is one point in the Hobbit which speaks quite to the opposite and implies that bravery was actually something that was despised in the Hobbit society: Quote:
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However, one can ask, whether these were just hobbits to be driven to their bravery only because of love. I think this is worth a debate. Surely the Men on the Elves could value bravery just for bravery itself, but among many of it, wasn't there actually love, the "push" of freeing one's beloved from the tyranny of the Darkness? The question would be then, if the hobbits were not actually passive in the meaning they indeed didn't care for the outside world. Were they just tending their own gardens while the Men of Gondor tried so much to be brave so that they can stop the shadow. And the hobbits didn't want to be brave until the danger knocked at their own door. Was it really like that? Gandalf (and others, for example Elrond on the Council) imply that it wasn't like that, and on Boromir's words of the bravery of Gondor replied that they are not the only ones to keep the shadow at bay. Nevertheless, I think the "forgetfulness about bravery" among hobbits is evident, but I don't think it's the hobbits who should be blamed. Or should they? How it was, indeed? Should we see some sort of cultural degradation from the "common" (in Middle-Earth) nature of being brave, or valuing of being brave, among the little folk who were shunned and chose to hide before the dangers of the world? Gandalf's mission, in fact, was to bring the virtue of bravery among the Hobbits, as he himself says in the Unfinished Tales: Quote:
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So, to sum up bravery: it was something quite "natural" to all the inhabitants of ME, certainly valued, though, as I somewhat (unintendedly) discovered "on course", it is debatable whether it would be valued for bravery itself. We know it was valued among all the species, including the villains (!). I can even say of one species, for which its father spoke (if he didn't just lie, that is) that they surely valued this virtue: Quote:
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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05-25-2007, 09:18 AM | #6 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hominum que contente mundique huius et cupido
Posts: 181
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Wooooooow, you just blew me away... I have to apologize, I misunderstood what you meant about finding references. I was thinking of something different, but I see what you meant now. Very interesting.
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War is not the answer, War is the question and the answer is yes Quis ut Deus |
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