Big Mystery: The Nine Rings of Power

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

It happens that once again, I had a simple question and I hoped to look it up here. I was searching the forums for some info about the Nine Rings of Power. I found out that there are about ten threads concerning the Rings of Power in general (not including the One), four or five about the Seven, and about fifteen threads named "The Three Rings", "The Elven Rings", "What were the rings that the Elves had?" and similar. Not a scratch about the Nine. Or at least not a scratch I was looking for.

My question is very simple. But I would certainly like to see an answer for it. A solid proof. My question is:

Where were the Nine Rings at the Third Age?

Now why am I asking. The question is not as simple as it might seem. We know that after the forging and assault on Eregion, Sauron took the Nine Rings of Power and gave him to the nine mortal Men. These men eventually became Ringwraith. They no longer had their other will but their master's. The Rings originally gave them might, sorcerous powers or who knows what else. Then, they left their original homes, wherever they were, and joined Sauron's ranks in Mordor.

As we know, about the Seven Sauron soon learned that the Dwarves cannot be turned to slaves by them, so he wanted to collect them back. From those he got back, he kept them to himself. Wouldn't he do a similar thing with the Nine? Or what, did he leave them to the Nazgul? But he no longer needed the Nine to control the Nazgul, why should he? Or do you say a Nazgul would "die" or something like that, had you took off his Ring? What I am sure of, is that he'd certainly not quickly turn back into a normal man and crying "hooray, I'm free" returned to Rhun (or wherever he came from).
And then there was that trouble with the fall of Mordor.

Originally Posted by LotR Appendix B

3441 Sauron overthrown by Elendil and Gil-galad, who perish. Isildur takes the One Ring. Sauron passes away and the Ringwraiths go into the shadows.

Sauron was gone, and the Ringwraith have "gone into the shadows". How do you imagine it? Was there a squad of shadowy, trembling spirits fleeing across the plains to the East, each with his own Ring on hand? Or did they just "pass into the shadow world", lurking around if it can be even said, in almost non-existence, until their master came back - but then, what about their Rings? They were material! Were they just lying in the pile of debris that became of Barad-Dur until the time came? But even then the Nazgul would have to take a long journey to Mordor to regain them and then go back to Dol Guldur to serve their master.

That's not all the questions, however. It continues:

Originally Posted by LotR Appendix B

c. 1300 Evil things begin to multiply again. (...)The Nazgûl reappear. The chief of these comes north to Angmar.

Okay, here we have the time when the Nazgul "reappear". It is of note that Sauron appeared in Mirkwood some 250 years before that. What does "reappear" mean here - that the world became once again aware of them? I don't think so - no one knew the Witch-King is a Nazgul for quite some time, and even the Wise had a clue. From what Gandalf says to Frodo, one could think that there was not much known about the Nazgul being around again until the War of the Ring, at least not among anybody besides the Wise:

Originally Posted by FotR Chapter 2: Shadow of the Past

Nine he gave to Mortal Men, proud and great, and so ensnared them. Long ago they fell under the dominion of the One, and they became Ringwraiths, shadows under his great Shadow, his most terrible servants. Long ago. It is many a year since the Nine walked abroad. Yet who knows? As the Shadow grows once more, they too may walk again.

So it is likely, based on the sources we have, that the Ringwraith actually came "out of the shadows" again some time after their master did. This really implies they were not present in the world in any percievable way. Not even to be seen (as the Nazgul without clothes are incorporeal and without form), but also, um, something as if they didn't even exist at that period. And where were the Nine rings all the thousand years? Lying somewhere on the ground, waiting for the dim siluet of a Ringwraith appearing at the time of Sauron's coming next to them? Dwarven rings were still with their masters. Elven rings we know of. The One was in the water. But the Nine...? At this point Sauron couldn't have collected them from the Ringwraith back during the Second Age, because Isildur then would just pick ten rings instead of one, as we know he didn't.

After some time then, the Nazgul came to Mordor, besieged Minas Morgul, shortly after Barad-Dur was rebuilt and everything went just fine. Whatever might have happened before, we are told that

Originally Posted by FotR Chapter 2: Shadow of the Past

So it is now: the Nine he has gathered to himself

(meaning Rings, of course.) But what should we imagine under "gathered to himself"? At this point, as much as it didn't seem likely in the previous case, I'd like to propose my theory of Sauron really collectig the Rings from the Nazgul and keeping them to himself. I have several good reasons for it:

• He had the Ringwraith totally under his control, Rings or not Rings, as I said above.
• He collected the Dwarven rings and did nothing with them; of course the situation here was a little bit different, because he already learned that the Dwarves cannot be turned to shadows (though he promised them to Dáin, but more like a bribery and actually I think as we know Sauron, that treacherous dog would probably keep the Rings to himself anyway, or just slay Dáin after he had the One back). I also presume if he got his hand on the Three, he'd also keep them.
• It's not a problem to have thirteen rings on nine fingers, you can have several rings on one finger, and if Sauron really wanted to be the Lord of Middle-Earth and the true "Lord of the Rings", this would be certainly fitting. We know he was collecting the Rings as much as he could, if only for the reason that possibly some Ring he heard about here or there might be the One.
• The Nazgul, ahem ahem, "died" at Bruinen. And we are with the same problem as above.
  

  Originally Posted by FotR, Book Two, Chapter 2: Council of Elrond

  The power of their master is in them, and they stand or fall by him. We hope that they were all unhorsed and unmasked, and so made for a while less dangerous; but we must find out for certain.
  (...)
  Three of the black horses had been found at once drowned in the flooded Ford. On the rocks of the rapids below it searchers discovered the bodies of five more, and also a long black cloak, slashed and tattered. Of the Black Riders no other trace was to be seen, and nowhere was their presence to be felt. It seemed that they had vanished from the North.
  "Eight out of the Nine are accounted for at least," said Gandalf. 'It is rash to be too sure, yet I think that we may hope now that the Ringwraiths were scattered, and have been obliged to return as best they could to their Master in Mordor, empty and shapeless.

  Nothing else was found. They probably wouldn't leave the Rings in place if they could, but "empty and shapeless" is quite well evaluating description.
• One of the Nazgul was killed by Legolas - shot down from the sky. I'd also like to know what happened to the Ring.
• And lastly, the Witch-King was killed on Pelennor. If he had the Ring on his hand at that time, then it must have been lying next to his... clothes. His spirit, however, departed, as we know. So the Ring with which his life was connected so much was now simply lying there on the ground? And what about at the time of casting the One to the Fire - did Faramir&Eowyn, looking from the walls of Minas Tirith, see a miniature explosion on the place the flying creature was buried? Or what? (I'm not saying that the Ring must have produced pyrotechnical effects when it lost its power, but it's interesting anyway).

The original idea had risen from the fact that nowhere, as far as I know, there is said that a Nazgul had a Ring on his hand. If someone finds a quote proving this, then I'd appreciate it. Otherwise... I'm awaiting opinions on the presented subject.

[narfforc]

I have always thought that The Nine Rings were with The Nazgul, however you raise a good point, I have not got the passage at hand, but I am sure it states it somewhere, I also think at this time of Sauron's spirit fleeing Numenor and taking up the Great Ring again, which implies/means he left it behind when taken prisoner by Ar-Pharazon, or how could his bodiless spirit carry it back from The Downfall, this is not true of The Nazgul as they have a spirit body as such that is knitted together by power, or how else could they cloth themselves in solid matter . I have often wondered if Sauron was tempted to give the three that remained of The Seven to some other persons, would Sarumans greed for power and his jealousy of Gandalf overcome his wisdom, The Three could be worn by a non-elf why not one of the lesser rings. It seems a waste to have them idle, was the Ring that Saruman wore on his finger one of the Seven, we only have Sarumans word that he was a Ring-maker and we know how easily lies came to his mouth. I do not think that the destruction of The Lord of the Nazgul would have resulted in his Ring being destroyed, although once the One was destroyed it would just be a piece of metal. I believe that Legolas shot the winged steed and not the Ringwraith, as an arrow would not do any damage to a Nazgul.


P.S Just read The Council of Elrond, it states that the Nine are with The Nazgul, (The Nine the Nazgul keep states Gandalf).

Good subject Legate


.

[Thinlómien]

But maybe the Witch-King's Ring was destroyed (or it vanished just like the nazgûl himself) when he was killed...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by narfforc

P.S Just read The Council of Elrond, it states that the Nine are with The Nazgul, (The Nine the Nazgul keep states Gandalf).

Ah! Really thanks for that one, narfforc. Because it is, I believe, the only place where there is stated that the Nazgul indeed have the Rings. This is what I really thought strange: even when Frodo has the Ring on, there isn't mentioned, for example, that "he saw a terrible figure of a fallen King, who wore a ring on his finger".

Of course, if someone wanted to use it, the claim of Gandalf that the Nazgul keep the Nine could be contested with Galadriel's words to Frodo. We might say Gandalf and Galadriel could both have the same authority and knowledge on that subject - it would be probably best to hear Saruman's opinion on this, because he was an expert on the Rings, as Gandalf says. Galadriel's statement seems to oppose the quoted:

Originally Posted by Mirror of Galadriel

You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine.

This implies that Sauron himself has the Nine - though, of course, this is quite literal explanation. In the context however, it is quite probable that Galadriel means "Sauron has power over the Seven and the Nine" (not to mention he even doesn't have all of the Seven, only three of them) in contrast to the Three, which remain hidden and unstained.

On the other hand, the subject now moves to the line of "what the heck now happened with the Rings at the beginning of the 3rd age?" This has something to do with the incorporalness of the Ringwraith, and what exactly they can do.

Originally Posted by Many Meetings

"I know," said Frodo. "They were terrible to behold! But why could we all see their horses?"
"Because they are real horses; just as the black robes are real robes that they wear to give shape to their nothingness when they have dealings with the living."

The nazgul have real horses, real clothes, and of course, real rings. They can use the corporeal items even though they are incorporeal themselves. We could presume, if a Nazgul was not completely killed, but just lost his robes and equipment e.g. in the Bruinen flood, he would just look around and collect his sword&dagger&the Ring and then leave to purchase some new clothes. But the situation at the end of the 2nd Age is somewhat different: Sauron was "dead", the Nazgul disappeared - and what of the Rings?

Originally Posted by narfforc

I believe that Legolas shot the winged steed and not the Ringwraith, as an arrow would not do any damage to a Nazgul.

Of course, of course - but they fell from the sky, that's what I'm talking about, I didn't say it correctly. The creature fell down to the ground and the Ringwraith as well. Now, you know, I can easily imagine an incorporeal nazgul parachutist crawling on the riverbank and searching for his Ring...

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

But maybe the Witch-King's Ring was destroyed (or it vanished just like the nazgûl himself) when he was killed...

Maybe. Or maybe there is a skipped passage in the book and there was something more sinister behind Eomer's cry "Death, death take us all..."

Once again, really thanks for your contributions to this topic to both of you! And I'm awaiting if anyone else has anything to say to this.

[The Might]

Ok...I'm a little confused here, so if I am right
The whole question here is did the Nazgul still have the Rings or did Sauron hold the Rings during the War of the Ring?
Well, as stated in the UT, when Sauron sent the Nazgul on their errand towards the end of June 3018, he still held the Rings.

...being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held ~ UT, Hunt for the Ring

But as is pointed out, they seem to have had the Rings with them when they travel to Eriador...which doesn't make any sense
I'm really confused now

Also, allow me to quote from the Letters:

I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand – laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills.

This letter deals with Frodo's 'failure' in the Sammath Naur and so, it clearly states that the Nazgul did not have their rings during the battle at the Black Gate, and so also probably not during the Siege of Minas Tirith (so much for the WK idea).

I think they never possesed the Rings during this whole time, and that they were always held by Sauron.
As far as what Frodo saw is concerned, I am not sure what to say

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, basically, had there not been the quote that narfforc mentioned, I'd say the Rings really were on Sauron's hand all the time... the more on what you brought forth here, TM... this was actually my first idea in this topic...

As we have only Gandalf's word on that, maybe he was simply mistaken? He didn't even see the Ringwraith - only at Weathertop (or from the height of Orthanc, which is not of any value), and while Galadriel's word might not be that important, the Author's word seems to imply that indeed the Rings were not in the possession of the Nazgul, and the Author's word should be considered of the highest authority.
The trouble is that the word "held", at all the times, can be interpretated as "had in power" or something like that, whereas that the Nine Riders "kept" the rings is pretty clear - and also, it is them who are the subjects, not Sauron.

As when TM mentioned UT, I looked there and this part took my interest:

Originally Posted by Unfinished Tales

The Lord of Morgul therefore led his companions over Anduin, unclad and unmounted, and invisible to eyes, and yet a terror to all living things that they passed near.
(...)They reached the west-shores of Anduin a little north of Sarn Gebir, as they had trysted; and there received horses and raiment that were secretly ferried over the River.

Now I don't think, if the Nazgul were wearing their rings still, that they'd take them off at one moment, cross the river (as it is said, on 1st July in Osgiliath) and then (16 days later at Sarn Gebir) took them back. And the idea of nine rings floating in mid-air through Anórien seems quite funny and unlikely.

[narfforc]

When Frodo puts on the Ring he is invisible you do not see a ring floating in mid-air, I believe this to be true of The Nine, because the Rings had totally ensnared them they and their rings are now invisible. When it comes to what Gandalf says in The Council of Elrond I put more trust in his words for they are what Tokien says and is happy with it in published form, I do not wish to be a bore but anything in UT is only what he was thinking of writing, nothing was ever finalised.