A word by any other name ...

[Bêthberry]

Gandalf did use a white light to chase off the Nazzies once on the Pelennor Fields, and so we can assume that he had knowledge of optics.

So says alatar on the Denethor's Plunge thread in Movies. alatar's nickname for the baddies got me thinking a bit (just a bit, so my question might be one of those out, out brief light kind of thing ).

What is the source for Tolkien's word Nazgul? How did Tolkien derive it? Why would he have picked it? It's his created language after all. Surely he would have been aware of just how similar a word it is to the name of the dreaded enemy of WW II, Nazi.

In the Forward to LotR, Tolkien denies that his story is any kind of allegory of the Second World War. He provides a fitting argument which dismisses any easy kind of equivalence between the Free Peoples of Middle-earth and the Allies of the Western World. So, if he didn't want readers to make this kind of connection, why did he employ a word for his baddies which is so similar to the name of the Allies' enemies?

We are so used to taking Tolkien's side here and defending his argument that LotR has little to do with the wars of his world. But can we blame readers for thinking along those lines when he allows such verbal similarity? It is almost a superficial propaganda.

If Gandalf had knowledge of 'optics', so certainly did Tolkien. What's with his use of Nazgul?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

That doesn't seem that striking a similarity to me, Beth. Unlike Winston Churchill, who insisted on 'narzy', Tolkien could pronounce 'nazi' properly, which makes it sound completely different from nazgûl. A closer real-world connection is that between the Gaelic word nasc, 'ring', and Black Speech nazg, 'ring', on which connection I posted some time ago.

Of course, in terms of the narrative setting, nazgûl is simply Black Speech for 'Ring-wraiths'. I'm very sceptical of any reference to the National Socialist German Workers' Party, even though Tolkien did express a profound dislike of several senior Nazi figures. When I get back home tonight, I'll try to find out when the term nazgûl emerged, and see if it corresponds to political events in contemporary Germany. I have a feeling that it won't.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

That doesn't seem that striking a similarity to me, Beth. Unlike Winston Churchill, who insisted on 'narzy', Tolkien could pronounce 'nazi' properly, which makes it sound completely different from nazgûl. A closer real-world connection is that between the Gaelic word nasc, 'ring', and Black Speech nazg, 'ring', on which connection I posted some time ago.

Of course, in terms of the narrative setting, nazgûl is simply Black Speech for 'Ring-wraiths'. I'm very sceptical of any reference to the National Socialist German Workers' Party, even though Tolkien did express a profound dislike of several senior Nazi figures. When I get back home tonight, I'll try to find out when the term nazgûl emerged, and see if it corresponds to political events in contemporary Germany. I have a feeling that it won't.

Thanks for the great link, Squatter on the Gaelic sources for the word. Winnie was just playing dismissive word games; he knew better I betcha.

I'm quite sure that Tolkien the philologist would have an impeccable derivation for his word that has nothing to do with the name of the German political party. Still, I'm less sanguine than you that some won't see a superficial similarity between the pronunciation of Nazi and Nazgûl even with a correctly employed t, particularly with the short, plosive double syllabic. They sound so much like nasty, you see, that some are bound to make the association, correct or not.
nasty has been posited as a Middle English derivation of the Old French villenastre (not originally a villain as in the baddie, but uncouth, a rough sort of fellow). There's also the Dutch nesti meaning "dirty," lit. "like a bird's nest" and the Swedish dialect naskug "dirty, nasty". In fact, the word Nazi itself has an interesting history and isn't a name that the German political party willingly took up.

Of course, I'm using dic.com here as I don't have time for an OED followup. My point is simply that the words can be confused. Such confusions occur often in linguistic history. Completely unscholarly associations take root and voila a word assumes a new direction.

I suppose that Tolkien was scholar enough to insist upon his derivations rather than bow down to such linguistic slovenliness. Still, it does provide a bit of grist to the mill, eh.

[alatar]

After I wrote that, I wondered the same thing but then got too tired/distracted to explore the word association further. Thanks for picking up the baton!

Personally, I think that, regardless of the all of the Tolkien and real world etymology, there're certain letter combinations that sound harsher than others, such as naz, which could help characterize the evil folk by the sound of their name. Much better for inspiring fear and nastiness than bombadil-gul.

[davem]

Have to admit that the Nazgul/Nazi connection stuck out like a sore thumb for me on my first reading. Its an idea I had to break myself of early on. Mind you, I'm not sure its a case of Tolkien 'allowing' such a verbal similarity. Tolkien's approach to language invention was more complex - once he had Nazg=Ring he couldn't just change the word root because of primary world Nazis - he would have had to invent another word, account for its origin, its historical development & make it 'fit'.

Which is not to say that he didn't smile to himself about the similarities....

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

If I were to say something for myself, I never thought about it that way. Most probably because the Z in "Nazgul" is certainly pronounced Z (as in "Zoom"), while in "Nazi" it is generally pronounced as C (as in... erm... oh, you English barbarians, why don't you ever pronounce "C" correctly! As in "Caesar" if it is pronounced with correct Latin spelling).

Originally Posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

That doesn't seem that striking a similarity to me, Beth. Unlike Winston Churchill, who insisted on 'narzy', Tolkien could pronounce 'nazi' properly, which makes it sound completely different from nazgûl. A closer real-world connection is that between the Gaelic word nasc, 'ring', and Black Speech nazg, 'ring', on which connection I posted some time ago.

Of course, in terms of the narrative setting, nazgûl is simply Black Speech for 'Ring-wraiths'. I'm very sceptical of any reference to the National Socialist German Workers' Party, even though Tolkien did express a profound dislike of several senior Nazi figures. When I get back home tonight, I'll try to find out when the term nazgûl emerged, and see if it corresponds to political events in contemporary Germany. I have a feeling that it won't.

I agree.

[alatar]

Note that, like many 'Mericans my age, I pronounce the word for the WWII National Socialists as knot-zeez. I'm not sure that my British cousins will read/hear this correctly as I'm trying to explain it (I was horrified to learn how y'all pronounce the letter Z and the number 0). Visually, looking at the letters on the page, I can easily connect the two words, but on hearing the word for the Ringwraiths, the connection with the Nazis would be weaker.

The connection may or may not exist for some. Still, I think that the spoken 'harshness' of the word Nazgul was intentional.

*Note that, as an 'Merican, the reference to and the exist of the Oxford English Dictionary, noted here, sends chills up my spine like no undead ever could...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

*Note that, as an 'Merican, the reference to and the exist of the Oxford English Dictionary, noted here, sends chills up my spine like no undead ever could...

Puff n stuff, alatar. The ever so distinguished Mr. R.W. Burchfield, of OED and Fowler's fame, could lecture quite humourously on the number of definitions which American dictionaries blatently pilfered from the OED. Oh, lexicography makes a great lair for a larcenist's license, it does. Mr. Baggins would have made a right proper lexicographer and probably did once he sailed West.

Squatter makes an eloquent plea for the heroic formulation of Tolkien's languages and the impecable scholarship (although not quite science) of philology. Yet, sadly, I am also reminded of the famous observations on words by one of Lewis Carroll's characters:

Originally Posted by Humpty

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.'

And before you declaim that it is the reader who is playing Humpty, let me hasten to add that there are many ways through which words are created and readers of LotR who may not have access to what is now an arcane academic discipline, splintered even afar off from linguistics, are within their rights as speakers of their tonque, to apply whatever forms of word meaning and derivation they have learnt when faced with a newly coined word. And it would absolutely amaze me if The Professor was ignorant of the various ways in which words are formed, in addition to their development from historical origins.

Oh, and, as an aside, the Seige of Mafeking led to the use of the verb maffick, as a back-formation from Mafeking, meaning to celebrate publicly. Well, according to the OED. People are always making up new words and can hardly be faulted for trying out comparisons when faced with what at first might appear to be a portmanteau word--the gullible nasties who fell prey to Annatar. After all, Smaug sounds so much like smoke and fog, eh? Who's to say that a fire breathing dragon ain't going to produce pollution? It's only us devious Tolkien fans who know the little joke there.

[davem]

And its all very well dismissing a reader who reacts to the word 'Nazgul' by conjuring up connections with 'Nazis', but some words beg such connections, & they are perfectly understandable - in the context of that particular reader. Tolkien may or may not have noticed the similarity in appearance between the words, but many readers cannot help but do so. Some unintended/unwished for 'connections' will happen in the reader's mind & there is nothing the author or reader can do about it. No English speaker encountering the Telerin version of Celeborn's name for the first time can avoid a smirk without a great effort of will.