The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-29-2007, 06:34 AM   #1
Elmo
Pittodrie Poltergeist
 
Elmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: trying to find that warm and winding lane again
Posts: 633
Elmo has just left Hobbiton.
Damned if you do, kablammed if you don't

In the tale of Adanel, Eru damned men for eternity with shortened lives for worshiping at the temple of Melkor and ignoring the Voice of Eru. When the temple is first built, Melkor asks the men if anyone still speaks to the voice. Some do but are too afraid to say and they all worship at the temple.

Let's just say some decided to say, 'Hey, Great Demon God of Evil, I enjoy a good chinwag from time to time with that voice you seem to hate so much, hope you don't mind and also be a dear and let me off today's 3 o'clock worship.' By saying this they would proably be doing Eru's will but then Melkor would smite them. So that's all the good members of the human race gone, leaving all the evil ones creating an even worse race then the one we have at the moment. Is that what Eru really wanted?

He gave a choice to the human race, death or evil worship and damnation for eternity. Why would Eru just create a race just for them to have those two choices?
__________________
As Beren looked into her eyes within the shadows of her hair,
The trembling starlight of the skies he saw there mirrored shimmering.
Elmo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2007, 07:01 AM   #2
The Might
Guard of the Citadel
 
The Might's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxon
Posts: 2,205
The Might is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Might is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Well...everything is life is actually just making choices, same in Tolkien's creation.
Nobody can predict what would have happened had they disobeyed Melkor, it could be that the sacrifice of the faithful would have impressed the others and moved them to making the same choice.
However, we see these people still were capable to change, since not all Men followed Melkor in the end.
Anyway, the story is if I remember well quite old, and so shouldn't be considered as important as Tolkien's later thoughts on such matters.
And also I remember seeing some quote of Tolkien's, from the letters I believem where he way pointing out that if Men weren't mortals, they would just be something very close to Elves, and there wouldn't be much point in creating them as Secondborn as such.
__________________
“The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.”
Delos B. McKown
The Might is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2007, 07:52 AM   #3
Folwren
Messenger of Hope
 
Folwren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: In a tiny, insignificant little town in one of the many States.
Posts: 5,076
Folwren is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Folwren is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hewhoarisesinmight
By saying this they would proably be doing Eru's will but then Melkor would smite them. So that's all the good members of the human race gone, leaving all the evil ones creating an even worse race then the one we have at the moment. Is that what Eru really wanted?
Do you honestly think that if people started standing up and obeying Eru, he would have left them to Melkor's devices and kablamming? I think not. I don't know what you're referring to in this post, I don't remember any temple worshiping, but if Eru gave the men who worshiped Melkor a punishment, then I believe that if they didn't worship Melkor, there would not be punishment, but a reward. Eru's big enough for Melkor, isn't he?

Can't comment further. As I said, I haven't read what you're referring to.

-- Folwren
__________________
A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. - C.S. Lewis
Folwren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2007, 09:24 AM   #4
The Might
Guard of the Citadel
 
The Might's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxon
Posts: 2,205
The Might is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Might is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Good point there Folwren, which makes me have another idea...
Was this really..."kablamming"?
Death was the Gift of Men, something that, as stated in the Silmarillion, would make the Elves and even the Ainur will envy Men for as time passes.
A life under Melkor's rule on the other hand...isn't that great is it?
So if you ask me, I think that by disobeying Melkor and getting killed Men would actually do themselves a favour.
__________________
“The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.”
Delos B. McKown
The Might is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2007, 02:23 AM   #5
Raynor
Eagle of the Star
 
Raynor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
Raynor has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Folwren
As I said, I haven't read what you're referring to.
I believe he is reffering to a text in HoME X.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth
Then one appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful; and he said that he had come out of pity.
...
- Now build Me a house upon a high place, and call it the House of the Lord

The first Voice we never heard again, save once. In the stillness of the night It spoke, saying:
- Ye have abjured Me, but ye remain Mine. I gave you life. Now it shall be shortened, and each of you in a little while shall come to Me, to learn who is your Lord: the one ye worship, or I who made him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Might
And also I remember seeing some quote of Tolkien's, from the letters I believem where he way pointing out that if Men weren't mortals, they would just be something very close to Elves, and there wouldn't be much point in creating them as Secondborn as such.
A very interesting point is found in this text too:
Quote:
...their 'immortality' cannot have been the longevity within Arda of the Elves; otherwise they would have been simply Elves, and their separate introduction later into the Drama by Eru would have no function.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hewhoarisesinmight
He gave a choice to the human race, death or evil worship and damnation for eternity. Why would Eru just create a race just for them to have those two choices?
It wasn't just these two choices since, as pointed previously, many (though not all) that wanted managed to escape. However, there is a considerable amount of salt to be taken with this story, considering that Men thought they should have been immortal, and also because Melkor appears in a fair form - of which he was not capable anymore after his evading from Valinor
Quote:
Originally Posted by Of the darkening of Valinor, Silmarillion
Now Melkor came to Avathar and sought [Ungoliant] out; and he put on again the form that he had worn as the tyrant of Utumno: a dark Lord, tall and terrible. In that form he remained ever after.
__________________
"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free."
Raynor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2007, 06:13 AM   #6
The Might
Guard of the Citadel
 
The Might's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxon
Posts: 2,205
The Might is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Might is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Yes Raynor, that's the quote I was talking about, wasn't sure where I had seen it though.
__________________
“The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.”
Delos B. McKown
The Might is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2007, 07:42 AM   #7
Lalwendë
A Mere Boggart
 
Lalwendë's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hewhoarisesinmight
By saying this they would proably be doing Eru's will but then Melkor would smite them. So that's all the good members of the human race gone, leaving all the evil ones creating an even worse race then the one we have at the moment. Is that what Eru really wanted?
We know that had anyone stood up to Melkor and refused to worship him then they'd get their 'gift' of Death and all that. That's a given, surely. But I think that what hewhoarisesinmight (hewhohasalongscreennametotype ) is saying is that if everyone did that, then there would be no good guys left at all to 'resist' anyway! It's a good point to make about the very practical matter of mankind simply surviving.

I hope Folwren is right and that Eru would step in and save some of the men before they all got wiped out!
__________________
Gordon's alive!
Lalwendë is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:47 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.