Three Themes of Iluvatar - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Iarwain · 03-13-2003, 09:08 PM

Just a random thought, but could the themes of Iluvatar in Ainulindale be related to the three main ages of Middle-Earth? That would mean that the Fourth age would be the immediate end of Middle Earth, and the onset of the Dagor Dagorath (for those who believe the prophesy).

Curious,
Iarwain

Meoshi · 03-13-2003, 09:23 PM

It seems to me that the three main ages weren't incredibly dissimilar from one another, while the themes were.

Especially with all the 1st age-3rd age parallels. The 3rd Age was much like a toned-down 1st Age(but I'm sure that's been talked over to no end already)

Liriodendron · 03-13-2003, 09:29 PM

I asked that once too! I think some one said Pooh pooh [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] I still like the idea. There's a thread here about the music, but I haven't had the time to read it yet.

Voralphion · 03-16-2003, 11:02 PM

The three themes of Illuvatar didn't correspond to the three ages of the world because the third age in LOtR wasn't the third age of the world, it was the third age of the sun and moon. Before the sun and moon there were the ages of the trees, and of these there were at least three because Melkor was imprisoned in the halls of Mandos for three ages. Before the ages of the trees there were the ages of the Valar in which they made the world, it says they toiled for ages uncounted.
As for the three themes of Illuvatar, I know for certain that the third theme was the theme concerning the children, as can be seen be the two separate movements in the theme, one slow and melodious (elves) and the other fast and endlessly repeated (men).
The first two themes involve the making of the world by the valar and their wars on Melkor for mastery of Arda.
I think the themes stopped at the time of the dominion of men as they were not bound to the music and fate as the elves were but could shape their lives as they wished, except of course the early men whose lives were entwined with the eldar, such as Tuor, Beren, Turin etc..

Liriodendron · 03-17-2003, 07:27 AM

That is funny! I also suggested the same thing, about the two themes in the last theme (being about the children, elves and men). A friend said this:

"two musics progressing at one time" that were "utterly at variance". One was "deep and wide and beautiful, but slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which it's beauty chiefly came". The other was the loud and vain and endlessly repeating one.

I (Rian, from Entmoot) always thought the beautiful one was "all" the music that came from Illuvatar, the original theme, plus the two in response to Melkor, and all three blended together in an incredible symphony. I thought the vain and loud one was all the music that came from Melkor.

[ March 18, 2003: Message edited by: Liriodendron ]

Iarwain · 03-18-2003, 08:33 PM

Thanks for that explaination, Voralphion, it makes sense. However I agree with Liriodendron on the fact that the loud endlessly repeating music was Melkor's discord, it resembles his endless succesion, and how, as Tolkien says, "the dark seed which he has sewn will ever sprout anew and bear new fruit". Very curious. I'm sure their are tons of parellelisms between the music and the rest of the tales that Tolkein wrote.

Thanks for the responses! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img],
Iarwain

03-13-2003, 09:08 PM	#1
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	Three Themes of Iluvatar Just a random thought, but could the themes of Iluvatar in Ainulindale be related to the three main ages of Middle-Earth? That would mean that the Fourth age would be the immediate end of Middle Earth, and the onset of the Dagor Dagorath (for those who believe the prophesy). Curious, Iarwain __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

03-13-2003, 09:29 PM	#3
Liriodendron Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 527	I asked that once too! I think some one said Pooh pooh [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] I still like the idea. There's a thread here about the music, but I haven't had the time to read it yet. __________________ http://www.lizmargason.com

03-16-2003, 11:02 PM	#4
Voralphion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sharkey's End Posts: 267	The three themes of Illuvatar didn't correspond to the three ages of the world because the third age in LOtR wasn't the third age of the world, it was the third age of the sun and moon. Before the sun and moon there were the ages of the trees, and of these there were at least three because Melkor was imprisoned in the halls of Mandos for three ages. Before the ages of the trees there were the ages of the Valar in which they made the world, it says they toiled for ages uncounted. As for the three themes of Illuvatar, I know for certain that the third theme was the theme concerning the children, as can be seen be the two separate movements in the theme, one slow and melodious (elves) and the other fast and endlessly repeated (men). The first two themes involve the making of the world by the valar and their wars on Melkor for mastery of Arda. I think the themes stopped at the time of the dominion of men as they were not bound to the music and fate as the elves were but could shape their lives as they wished, except of course the early men whose lives were entwined with the eldar, such as Tuor, Beren, Turin etc.. __________________ His sword was long his lance was keen His shining helm afar was seen The countless stars of heavens field Were mirrored in his silver shield

03-17-2003, 07:27 AM	#5
Liriodendron Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 527	That is funny! I also suggested the same thing, about the two themes in the last theme (being about the children, elves and men). A friend said this: "two musics progressing at one time" that were "utterly at variance". One was "deep and wide and beautiful, but slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which it's beauty chiefly came". The other was the loud and vain and endlessly repeating one. I (Rian, from Entmoot) always thought the beautiful one was "all" the music that came from Illuvatar, the original theme, plus the two in response to Melkor, and all three blended together in an incredible symphony. I thought the vain and loud one was all the music that came from Melkor. [ March 18, 2003: Message edited by: Liriodendron ] __________________ http://www.lizmargason.com

03-18-2003, 08:33 PM	#6
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	Thanks for that explaination, Voralphion, it makes sense. However I agree with Liriodendron on the fact that the loud endlessly repeating music was Melkor's discord, it resembles his endless succesion, and how, as Tolkien says, "the dark seed which he has sewn will ever sprout anew and bear new fruit". Very curious. I'm sure their are tons of parellelisms between the music and the rest of the tales that Tolkein wrote. Thanks for the responses! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img], Iarwain __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

03-13-2003, 09:23 PM	#2
Meoshi Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Atop the peak of Kalormë Posts: 163	It seems to me that the three main ages weren't incredibly dissimilar from one another, while the themes were. Especially with all the 1st age-3rd age parallels. The 3rd Age was much like a toned-down 1st Age(but I'm sure that's been talked over to no end already)