Words and Names in Tolkien's Work - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lalwendë · 03-09-2007, 06:26 PM

I've been exploring some of the words and names created by Tolkien, and looking at how they relate (or not) to existing words, and having a little fun in speculating. I've not just been struck by corresponding meanings, which can often be so different as to be quite jarring, but also by the similarity in the sound and shape of the words.

I was chatting to tgwbs, who is a keen linguist, and said I'd been thinking of starting up a thread which has a simple aim: To compare names and words created by Tolkien with words in use in the real world. It can be fun where we speculate, and I encourage wild speculation, and it can also be really useful for our understanding where we spot a genuine correspondence - not just our understanding of Tolkien but our understanding of our own languages. So be as speculative or as much of a linguist as you like. No need to be an expert, but language experts are equally welcome! All I'd ask is that we give each word we look at a fair chance and discuss it a little at least, to avoid this just becoming a 'list'.

And of course Tolkien was fond of playing around with words in exactly this way!

So I'll kick it off with Thingol.

Thingol in Tolkien's world means Greycloak. It's a word I like the sound and feel of, as it reminds me of old Viking place names - among them Thingwall and Dingwall, and of the name of the Manx parliament, the Tynwald. Looking up the root, thing, brings the information that this roughly translates as 'assembly' or 'court', descending through time to mean 'business' and 'purpose' to meaning 'object' as it does today.

Now given that, do you think Tolkien chose thing as a root for this name because it suggests leadership, authority? Or something else?

Raynor · 03-09-2007, 06:44 PM

Thingol evolved from Linwe Tinto, through many states, such as Tingoglint, or Tinweling. Both roots of the original name are somewhat related (tin: spark, glint, star; and lint: quick, nimble, light). Chris notes that Tolkien must have been impressed by the (esperando?) word lint from an early stage of his linguistic constructions - in relation to his father's comments in the "A secret vice" essay.

**The Saucepan Man** · 03-09-2007, 06:53 PM

For me, a curious name to start with, Lal.

This may sound silly, but its a genuine reaction.

I find Thingol to be one of my least favourite names in Tolkien's works. Simply because of the word "thing", which to me denotes a generalised and unspecified, and therefore rather unimportant, item. The association with "thingamajig" or "thingamabob" or just plain "thingy", makes me think of someone or something which is so drab that one cannot be bothered to recall its proper name.

Sorry but, as I said, it's a genuine reaction. And it colours my view of the character. I find him uninteresting.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 03-09-2007, 08:31 PM

His Quenya name is Elwë Singollo, which sounds much more euphonious. Although I never found it particularly boring, I had noticed the similarity of Thingol and thingy before. I think I used the name Ereyu Thingy in one of the REB episodes, but I forget where.

I think that the real danger in examining Sindarin and Quenya names for real-world parallels is that the names as they stand now are the result of years of invention and development. They follow phonological and grammatical rules that Tolkien devised independently of individual names or characters, so that any search for correspondances is in danger of pointing out nothing but coincidences.

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter #297

But I remain puzzled , and indeed sometimes irritated, by many of the guesses at the 'sources' of the nomenclature, and theories or fancies concerning hidden meanings. These seem to me no more than private amusements, and as such I have no right or power to object to them, though they are, I think, valueless for the elucidation or interpretation of my fiction...
the bulk of the nomenclature is constructed from these pre-existing [invented] languages, and where the resulting names have analysable meanings (as is usual) these are relevant solely to the fiction with which they are integrated. The 'source', if any, provided solely the sound-sequence (or suggestions for its stimulus) and its purport in the source is totally irrelevant except in case of Earendil...

Since we already know about Eärendil, and since Thingol is pure Sindarin with a definite meaning in that language, I'll just throw the Telerin/Greek (the former intentionally, the latter coincidentally) name Teleporno into the mix and see what can be made of it.

Estelyn Telcontar · 03-10-2007, 04:02 AM

Interesting topic idea, Lal! I would like to add something from the German linguistic background - the word "Thing" is indeed an old word meaning ruling assembly or council, also the place where that assembly was held.

The annual meeting of the German Tolkien Society is called "Tolkien Thing" - a name which met with some puzzled laughs when I mentioned it to friends here.

There is also a "Thing Street" in the village where I live.

We do know that Tolkien knew the Germanic languages well and that they have some similar background to the Nordic languages which were an inspiration for his Elvish languages. It is possible that the idea of rulership was a part of the "leaf-mould" for Thingol's name. It's all speculation, of course, but when did we ever let that stop an interesting discussion?!

Lalwendë · 03-10-2007, 04:44 AM

Squatter - a bit of mere coincidence is no matter, I'm intending this to be fun. I was thinking partly about the fascinating speculation we had on the Chapter by Chapter threads; they gave me a lot of new ideas to ponder on, and we had some brief forays into words there. What do you reckon to a bit of fun with words?

Liking the reactions to the word thing! Especially the Tolkien Thing! I suppose it's a name which gets my attention due to the place-name Thingwall, a place where I have relatives - it's quite a spiky word I suppose, but I have always preferred the sound of Germanic words to Latin ones. Thingol being a more 'modern' variant of Singollo is interesting, suggesting a change in the actual way that the elves spoke - just make the sounds th and s and see the difference; the sound th is a much quieter sound, maybe suggesting a need to be quieter?

Teleporno is an odd name to me as it sounds Latin. Funnily enough while I was looking up Thingol I came eventually to the name Incanus for Gandalf which Tolkien had thought was maybe a bit too Latin (but which happily suggests incantation, a thing you imagine wizards engaging in...). Isn't tele Latin for 'vision' or 'sight'?

the guy who be short · 03-24-2007, 01:13 PM

Are we done with Mr Thingol? Shall we move onto something else? I will repeat that I think it will be a lot more fruitful looking in Rohirric and Westron than the Elvish languages, as any Elvish-English connection is probably going to be coincidental (except perhaps Eldar-Elder).

I'm rereading UT, which has a lot on how Rohiriric words are related to Anglo-Saxon.

Also, has anybody read 'The Ring of Words: Tolkien and the Oxford English Dictionary' - apparently a good source for the linguistically-minded.

littlemanpoet · 03-24-2007, 09:15 PM

'Assembly of the Wise' made me think of The White Council from LotR. I wonder if it had a connection to Anglo-Saxon witan gemot? Did the Council of Elrond?

Lalwendë · 06-05-2007, 08:41 AM

I was reading about the awesome Germanic custom of the Symbel today - how cool does this sound eh?

Of course and then we have Simbelmyne - Evermind. At the ritual drinking fest one of the features would be the scop or bard who would recite the genealogies - and niftily, the Rohirrim also have just that kind of thing at Theoden's funeral! Which brings it full circle - Simbelmyne at Theoden's funeral, overseen by a bard who recites the histories, just as did the scop, at the Symbel.

***

I've also found something interesting abut Germanic correspondences in the names of months - Blotmonath for example - and am fascinated that the word Bless directly derives from Blot - the pagan sacrificial practice

That's also got me on to the Tomte or Nisse, a Swedish Wight a bit like a Boggart, who makes me think of old Tom Bombadillo...and that Galdor is a kind of Scandinavian Shamanic magic...

It's a dangerous do, looking at words...

03-09-2007, 06:26 PM	#1
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	Words and Names in Tolkien's Work I've been exploring some of the words and names created by Tolkien, and looking at how they relate (or not) to existing words, and having a little fun in speculating. I've not just been struck by corresponding meanings, which can often be so different as to be quite jarring, but also by the similarity in the sound and shape of the words. I was chatting to tgwbs, who is a keen linguist, and said I'd been thinking of starting up a thread which has a simple aim: To compare names and words created by Tolkien with words in use in the real world. It can be fun where we speculate, and I encourage wild speculation, and it can also be really useful for our understanding where we spot a genuine correspondence - not just our understanding of Tolkien but our understanding of our own languages. So be as speculative or as much of a linguist as you like. No need to be an expert, but language experts are equally welcome! All I'd ask is that we give each word we look at a fair chance and discuss it a little at least, to avoid this just becoming a 'list'. And of course Tolkien was fond of playing around with words in exactly this way! So I'll kick it off with Thingol. Thingol in Tolkien's world means Greycloak. It's a word I like the sound and feel of, as it reminds me of old Viking place names - among them Thingwall and Dingwall, and of the name of the Manx parliament, the Tynwald. Looking up the root, thing, brings the information that this roughly translates as 'assembly' or 'court', descending through time to mean 'business' and 'purpose' to meaning 'object' as it does today. Now given that, do you think Tolkien chose thing as a root for this name because it suggests leadership, authority? Or something else? __________________ Gordon's alive!

03-09-2007, 06:53 PM	#3
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	For me, a curious name to start with, Lal. This may sound silly, but its a genuine reaction. I find Thingol to be one of my least favourite names in Tolkien's works. Simply because of the word "thing", which to me denotes a generalised and unspecified, and therefore rather unimportant, item. The association with "thingamajig" or "thingamabob" or just plain "thingy", makes me think of someone or something which is so drab that one cannot be bothered to recall its proper name. Sorry but, as I said, it's a genuine reaction. And it colours my view of the character. I find him uninteresting. __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! Last edited by The Saucepan Man; 03-09-2007 at 07:17 PM.

03-10-2007, 04:02 AM	#5
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Interesting topic idea, Lal! I would like to add something from the German linguistic background - the word "Thing" is indeed an old word meaning ruling assembly or council, also the place where that assembly was held. The annual meeting of the German Tolkien Society is called "Tolkien Thing" - a name which met with some puzzled laughs when I mentioned it to friends here. There is also a "Thing Street" in the village where I live. We do know that Tolkien knew the Germanic languages well and that they have some similar background to the Nordic languages which were an inspiration for his Elvish languages. It is possible that the idea of rulership was a part of the "leaf-mould" for Thingol's name. It's all speculation, of course, but when did we ever let that stop an interesting discussion?! __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

03-10-2007, 04:44 AM	#6
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	Squatter - a bit of mere coincidence is no matter, I'm intending this to be fun. I was thinking partly about the fascinating speculation we had on the Chapter by Chapter threads; they gave me a lot of new ideas to ponder on, and we had some brief forays into words there. What do you reckon to a bit of fun with words? Liking the reactions to the word thing! Especially the Tolkien Thing! I suppose it's a name which gets my attention due to the place-name Thingwall, a place where I have relatives - it's quite a spiky word I suppose, but I have always preferred the sound of Germanic words to Latin ones. Thingol being a more 'modern' variant of Singollo is interesting, suggesting a change in the actual way that the elves spoke - just make the sounds th and s and see the difference; the sound th is a much quieter sound, maybe suggesting a need to be quieter? Teleporno is an odd name to me as it sounds Latin. Funnily enough while I was looking up Thingol I came eventually to the name Incanus for Gandalf which Tolkien had thought was maybe a bit too Latin (but which happily suggests incantation, a thing you imagine wizards engaging in...). Isn't tele Latin for 'vision' or 'sight'? __________________ Gordon's alive!

03-24-2007, 09:15 PM	#8
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	speaking of associations... 'Assembly of the Wise' made me think of The White Council from LotR. I wonder if it had a connection to Anglo-Saxon witan gemot? Did the Council of Elrond?

03-09-2007, 06:44 PM	#2
Raynor Eagle of the Star Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sarmisegethuza Posts: 1,058	Thingol evolved from Linwe Tinto, through many states, such as Tingoglint, or Tinweling. Both roots of the original name are somewhat related (tin: spark, glint, star; and lint: quick, nimble, light). Chris notes that Tolkien must have been impressed by the (esperando?) word lint from an early stage of his linguistic constructions - in relation to his father's comments in the "A secret vice" essay. __________________ "May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free."

03-24-2007, 01:13 PM	#7
the guy who be short Shadowed Prince Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Thulcandra Posts: 2,343	Are we done with Mr Thingol? Shall we move onto something else? I will repeat that I think it will be a lot more fruitful looking in Rohirric and Westron than the Elvish languages, as any Elvish-English connection is probably going to be coincidental (except perhaps Eldar-Elder). I'm rereading UT, which has a lot on how Rohiriric words are related to Anglo-Saxon. Also, has anybody read 'The Ring of Words: Tolkien and the Oxford English Dictionary' - apparently a good source for the linguistically-minded.

06-05-2007, 08:41 AM	#9
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	I was reading about the awesome Germanic custom of the Symbel today - how cool does this sound eh? Of course and then we have Simbelmyne - Evermind. At the ritual drinking fest one of the features would be the scop or bard who would recite the genealogies - and niftily, the Rohirrim also have just that kind of thing at Theoden's funeral! Which brings it full circle - Simbelmyne at Theoden's funeral, overseen by a bard who recites the histories, just as did the scop, at the Symbel. *** I've also found something interesting abut Germanic correspondences in the names of months - Blotmonath for example - and am fascinated that the word Bless directly derives from Blot - the pagan sacrificial practice That's also got me on to the Tomte or Nisse, a Swedish Wight a bit like a Boggart, who makes me think of old Tom Bombadillo...and that Galdor is a kind of Scandinavian Shamanic magic... It's a dangerous do, looking at words... __________________ Gordon's alive!