Enchanted Stream - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Maltagaerion · 02-10-2002, 11:02 PM

Remember the Enchanted Stream in Mirkwood? Bombur fell into it and slept quite a long time due to the enchantment. My question is was it ever explained anywhere why it was enchanted and who caused it? I can't seem to find and reference about it.

Kuruharan · 02-10-2002, 11:30 PM

It may have been a defense mechanism of the Elves. But, that's just an uneducated and probably unlikely guess.
However, I'd be willing to bet that the stream being enchanted has something to do with the Elves though. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Bruce MacCulloch · 02-10-2002, 11:34 PM

The other possibilty is that the enchantment of the stream had something to do with Dol Guldur. Remember, Sauron was living in the south of Mirkwood at the time of The Hobbit.

Elendur · 02-11-2002, 01:01 AM

I would say that it is likely that the enchanted stream was a river running north from Dol Guldur. If you remember, Dol Guldur is built on high land in the south portion of Mirkwood. So it makes sense that a stream would form flowing from South to North cutting along the elves path through the forest.

Why the stream makes you fall asleep, I dont know exactly for sure. But it is because of Dol Guldur I would say.

Kuruharan · 02-11-2002, 07:58 AM

Umm, no. The Enchanted River springs up in the Mountains of Mirkwood, and hence is never anywhere near Dol Guldur.

Scapegoat · 02-12-2002, 02:11 AM

I think it most likely that the Forest Stream enchantment had it source with the woodelves. The whole time Bombur was under its spell he 'slept on with a smile on his fat face.' When he awoke he described having dreams of singing and feasting in the forest with a Woodland King. I don't think any enchantment of the Necromancer would have been in any way pleasant.

Elendur · 02-12-2002, 09:59 PM

Yes, I beleive you are both right. My theory was a little stupid now that I think of it.

Just to pose the question though, why would the elves want to make a seemingly evil stream. Beorn or Gandalf warns never to touch the black stream. Obviously it is not something that you want to do, so it seems a little harsh. I can understand why the elves wouldn't want people using there road alot, but why make a nice stream into something that could very well kill the unsuspecting fellow who drank from it or fell in.

In The Hobbit it talks about the Wood Elves as being unwise or something close to that. (I will have to find the quote later) Maybe Tolkiens view of them changed when he wrote LOTR because obviously Legolas is a good elf.

Kuruharan · 02-12-2002, 10:27 PM

Well, sad to say, but war and politics and protecting the safety of the realm are serious questions involving life and death. They are not played by nice rules. If you can make what essentially amounts to a moat look like a nice inviting stream and put potential intruders to sleep or otherwise poison them, you do it.

That is assuming that my theory (and that's all it is, a theory [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) is correct. The above could be a reason behind it.

Maltagaerion · 02-12-2002, 11:45 PM

Hrmm it does seem to make sense. Thanks for your input guys. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

alatar · 03-18-2010, 09:16 AM

Why didn't the Elves make better use of these waters? What better than to spray opponents with the waters, rendering them senseless?

They could have sent Thorin a 'peace offering' of some food and casks of water when the Dwarf was holed up in the Lonely Mountain.

"Drink up!"

My original thought was to somehow feed this water to Gollum when he was in captivity, as it might have made him more manageable.

Rumil · 03-18-2010, 03:51 PM

The Wood Elves do seem to have been experts in what one might call a level 1 D&D sleep spell, had not Galadriel somewhat complicated our analysis of 'magic' in ME. A couple of times Bilbo et al chased after the elven parties, only to 'magically' fall asleep.

The enchanted stream isn't a particularly 'evil' defence system, as long as it gets patrolled frequently. Assuming the sleeper doesn't fall in the water and drown, I guess the next elven patrol just picks them up and then either despatches, imprisons or revitalises them (perhaps with a little Dorwinion vintage). From Bombur's experience I guess the sleeper would wake up before they starved to death or whatever.

I agree its more likely to be the elves' doing than the Necromancer's. IIRC MERP has it that the stream is enchanted by some noxious emanation from a secret Sauronic hideout in the Mountains of Mirkwood, but as Scapegoat says, this doesn't tie in at all with Bombur's pleasant dreams.

OH and maybe the sleep effect wears off when the water is removed fom the stream? Otherwise Thranduil would have a very nice little earner flogging sleep potions to all and sundry!

As to bottling the water and using selling it on at an outrageous profit as sleep potion, well I guess maybe it doesn't work that way. Perhaps the effect 'goes off' when the water is removed from the river?
Remember they had left a boat. This could be a neat mechanism of only allowing 'goodly' folk across if it was only get-able by pulling on elven rope, because the evil types might be unable to touch the rope (from Gollum's reaction). Though it was old and rotten, so either the elves didn't expect any friendly travellers, or they had forgotten about it, what with their hectic partying schedule.

Selmo · 03-19-2010, 06:28 AM

Perhaps the river wasn't enchanted. but poisoned by Elven industry.

It could be the answer to the recent thread "Waste".

.

mark12_30 · 03-19-2010, 06:41 AM

Enchanted sleep is a pretty standard "Faerie" thing. Rip Van Winkle, &c. Sleep was sweet in Bombadil's house, though not quite enchanted. I forget whether Smith slept in Faerie; seems like he must have but I haven't read Smith in a while.

For Elves: Frodo fell asleep under the elven music in Rivendell; all three hobbits slept deeply and well under Gildor's care in Woody End; and Melian cast a spell of years over Thingol.

The elves of Mirkwood are a little wilder, I think, than the elves of Lorien or Rivendell. They party in the pitch dark, and hunt wild white stags through the black forest. Enchanting a stream doesn't seem beyond them at all.

Elves are good; but they are dangerous. I think we often forget that. "Perilous", said both sons of Denethor. Elves are not to be taken lightly.

02-10-2002, 11:02 PM	#1
Maltagaerion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 60	Enchanted Stream Remember the Enchanted Stream in Mirkwood? Bombur fell into it and slept quite a long time due to the enchantment. My question is was it ever explained anywhere why it was enchanted and who caused it? I can't seem to find and reference about it. __________________ Friends don't let friends drink Starbucks

02-10-2002, 11:30 PM	#2
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,593	It may have been a defense mechanism of the Elves. But, that's just an uneducated and probably unlikely guess. However, I'd be willing to bet that the stream being enchanted has something to do with the Elves though. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

02-10-2002, 11:34 PM	#3
Bruce MacCulloch Dead Man of Dunharrow Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 651	The other possibilty is that the enchantment of the stream had something to do with Dol Guldur. Remember, Sauron was living in the south of Mirkwood at the time of The Hobbit. __________________ `A blunderbuss, was it?' said he, scratching his head. `I thought it was horseflies!'

02-11-2002, 01:01 AM	#4
Elendur Wight Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Arnor Posts: 200	I would say that it is likely that the enchanted stream was a river running north from Dol Guldur. If you remember, Dol Guldur is built on high land in the south portion of Mirkwood. So it makes sense that a stream would form flowing from South to North cutting along the elves path through the forest. Why the stream makes you fall asleep, I dont know exactly for sure. But it is because of Dol Guldur I would say. __________________ Son of Isildur.

02-11-2002, 07:58 AM	#5
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,593	Umm, no. The Enchanted River springs up in the Mountains of Mirkwood, and hence is never anywhere near Dol Guldur. __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

02-12-2002, 02:11 AM	#6
Scapegoat Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New England Posts: 18	I think it most likely that the Forest Stream enchantment had it source with the woodelves. The whole time Bombur was under its spell he 'slept on with a smile on his fat face.' When he awoke he described having dreams of singing and feasting in the forest with a Woodland King. I don't think any enchantment of the Necromancer would have been in any way pleasant.

02-12-2002, 09:59 PM	#7
Elendur Wight Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Arnor Posts: 200	Yes, I beleive you are both right. My theory was a little stupid now that I think of it. Just to pose the question though, why would the elves want to make a seemingly evil stream. Beorn or Gandalf warns never to touch the black stream. Obviously it is not something that you want to do, so it seems a little harsh. I can understand why the elves wouldn't want people using there road alot, but why make a nice stream into something that could very well kill the unsuspecting fellow who drank from it or fell in. In The Hobbit it talks about the Wood Elves as being unwise or something close to that. (I will have to find the quote later) Maybe Tolkiens view of them changed when he wrote LOTR because obviously Legolas is a good elf. __________________ Son of Isildur.

02-12-2002, 10:27 PM	#8
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,593	Well, sad to say, but war and politics and protecting the safety of the realm are serious questions involving life and death. They are not played by nice rules. If you can make what essentially amounts to a moat look like a nice inviting stream and put potential intruders to sleep or otherwise poison them, you do it. That is assuming that my theory (and that's all it is, a theory [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) is correct. The above could be a reason behind it. __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

02-12-2002, 11:45 PM	#9
Maltagaerion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 60	Hrmm it does seem to make sense. Thanks for your input guys. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Friends don't let friends drink Starbucks

03-18-2010, 09:16 AM	#10
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	Why didn't the Elves make better use of these waters? What better than to spray opponents with the waters, rendering them senseless? They could have sent Thorin a 'peace offering' of some food and casks of water when the Dwarf was holed up in the Lonely Mountain. "Drink up!" My original thought was to somehow feed this water to Gollum when he was in captivity, as it might have made him more manageable. __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

03-18-2010, 03:51 PM	#11
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	Zzzzzzzz The Wood Elves do seem to have been experts in what one might call a level 1 D&D sleep spell, had not Galadriel somewhat complicated our analysis of 'magic' in ME. A couple of times Bilbo et al chased after the elven parties, only to 'magically' fall asleep. The enchanted stream isn't a particularly 'evil' defence system, as long as it gets patrolled frequently. Assuming the sleeper doesn't fall in the water and drown, I guess the next elven patrol just picks them up and then either despatches, imprisons or revitalises them (perhaps with a little Dorwinion vintage). From Bombur's experience I guess the sleeper would wake up before they starved to death or whatever. I agree its more likely to be the elves' doing than the Necromancer's. IIRC MERP has it that the stream is enchanted by some noxious emanation from a secret Sauronic hideout in the Mountains of Mirkwood, but as Scapegoat says, this doesn't tie in at all with Bombur's pleasant dreams. OH and maybe the sleep effect wears off when the water is removed fom the stream? Otherwise Thranduil would have a very nice little earner flogging sleep potions to all and sundry! As to bottling the water and using selling it on at an outrageous profit as sleep potion, well I guess maybe it doesn't work that way. Perhaps the effect 'goes off' when the water is removed from the river? Remember they had left a boat. This could be a neat mechanism of only allowing 'goodly' folk across if it was only get-able by pulling on elven rope, because the evil types might be unable to touch the rope (from Gollum's reaction). Though it was old and rotten, so either the elves didn't expect any friendly travellers, or they had forgotten about it, what with their hectic partying schedule. __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion Last edited by Rumil; 03-18-2010 at 03:56 PM. Reason: extra

03-19-2010, 06:28 AM	#12
Selmo Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Shire (Staffordshire), United Kingdom Posts: 273	Perhaps the river wasn't enchanted. but poisoned by Elven industry. It could be the answer to the recent thread "Waste". .

03-19-2010, 06:41 AM	#13
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Enchanted sleep is a pretty standard "Faerie" thing. Rip Van Winkle, &c. Sleep was sweet in Bombadil's house, though not quite enchanted. I forget whether Smith slept in Faerie; seems like he must have but I haven't read Smith in a while. For Elves: Frodo fell asleep under the elven music in Rivendell; all three hobbits slept deeply and well under Gildor's care in Woody End; and Melian cast a spell of years over Thingol. The elves of Mirkwood are a little wilder, I think, than the elves of Lorien or Rivendell. They party in the pitch dark, and hunt wild white stags through the black forest. Enchanting a stream doesn't seem beyond them at all. Elves are good; but they are dangerous. I think we often forget that. "Perilous", said both sons of Denethor. Elves are not to be taken lightly. __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.