In this House of Elrond.....

[Mithalwen]

Again apologies if this belongs in N&N, but I was watching a programme on the History Channel yesterday - well sadly I only caught the end of it - in which this chap was following a medieaval map across the Welsh marches and mountains to St Davids.

As a pilgrims map he went past a ruined abbey and there was a shot of a valley with the mountains behind, and I thought "That looks a bit like Rivendell" - my idea of it of course, thought the valley was rather too wide and shallow perhaps - and the voice over said something about how abbeys were often built in beautiful and remote places and were the original hospitals offering both hospitality and medical care to travellers. And of course I thought that is like Rivendell too.

Abbeys were also repositories of learning and places that were entrusted with the care of orphans (Rivendell, check, check..). They were usually - but not always - based on communal living which seems to be the case at Rivendell. And while just becasue Arwen is the only woman mentioned it doesn't mean there weren't others in the actual descriptions she does seem alone and apart.

While Imladris does not have the religious function, at the Council of Elrond that there are some of the few references to the higher powers that govern Arda in the discussion of sending the Ring over Sea.

Of course when these kinds of thoughts strike you it is possible to get carried awayso Iwill leave it there until I see whether anyone thinks there is anything in this or if I have just gone off on a tangent.

[Lalwendë]

I think the chief connection is that secluded mountain valleys would have offered protection and its no mistake that Elves built in such places: Rivendell and Gondolin hidden in valleys, Thranduil's realm in the deep woods, etc. That's why a lot of Abbeys and other similar communities were built in hidden places (Fountains Abbey is a good example in North Yorkshire), especially given the frequency of invasions to the British Isles in the early years of Christianity.

However, there are two 'buts'. Firstly, what about those Abbeys quite pointedly not built in secluded places, even in the early years, such as Whitby and Jarrow? These two in particular were extremely important and yet seemed to be sighted as if to shout out "look at us! look at our power!". And secondly, the reason so many Abbeys are in valleys is just that there are rivers there and better pasture. Monks were also farmers and fishermen; in fact the majority of monks and nuns would have been engaged in the more prosaic work of food production, and they were probably glad as I've read many a time that the scribes lead awful lives, in constant fear of their superiors for spoiling manuscripts and with damaged eyesight and lead poisoning from inks.

I agree Rivendell probably sits with the idealised side of monastic life, but I doubt the artsy Elves we see in Tolkien's work would have been prepared to 'muck in' like real monks and nuns were, and are.

[MatthewM]

I like the connection!

[davem]

It also shares aspects of the medieval college as a place of learning, & as you state, there is a distinct absence of 'religious' practice - of course the earliest Universities were often founded & run by Churchmen. However Rivendell has an aspect which neither Abbeys nor early Universities had - it was, as Tolkien stated, a homely place. I'm sure (now you point it out) that Tolkien drew on the image/ideal of the Abbey, & as well as the University, but also on the Hotels & pensions he would have seen in Switzerland. here

I think, as was usual with Tolkien, a lot of things went into creating the secondary world, & I don't doubt that the Abbey (at least its 'ideal' went into the mix)

[Rumil]

Bet you a fiver it's Tintern on the River Wye. Nice place between the Forest of Dean and the Welsh hills,

[Lalwendë]

As davem says the medieval college is also another link. In their early days, Oxbridge colleges were established as almost monastic institutions, and religion remains to this day tied up with the colleges; it wasn't long before Tolkien himself arrived at Oxford that Catholics had finally been allowed to study in the colleges affiliated to the University. But in their early days, and really up to the 18th century, Oxbridge colleges were stark, unpleasant places - the students lived a truly bleak existence and even had to fear for their lives in Oxford as there were well known riots and murders involving students vs town dwellers.

Those great abbeys of course were all very different in their outlook and how they directed their members to live. At Whitby under Hilda for example, accommodation would consist of a 'beehive' shaped 'cell', following the Celtic tradition - the grand buildings being reserved for worship as it was a matter of faith that the members lived as harsh an everyday life as possible. Whitby of course was just one of several institutions that was for both men and women.

Another interesting link is that the old Abbeys were centres of political power, as was Rivendell; many a corrupt man or woman would seek a career in the Church as being head of an Abbey was not only a path to riches but to power, holding great tracts of land, being able to levy taxes and tithes and influence the barons. It was no mistake that many of the members came from the gentry. You see this at Rivendell, which seems to be a 'home' to several powerful Elves including Glorfindel, and it also sends out envoys to exert an influence on Middle-earth.

[Mithalwen]

The college aspect occurred to me .. but not at the moment I was typing.. actually I think the elves are not so artsy as Lal makes out .. they must have been self sufficient and HoME indicates gender preferences for different tasks. I don't think we see those sides because it is a Hobbit perspectives and they are more interested in teh differences than the similarities.