Melkor is the saviour of mankind

[Elmo]

I've read in many places that men couldn't cope in the undying land and that their lot there would be miserable what would have happened if Melkor had not driven the Valar out of Middle Earth. Men would have arisen and lived extremly short lives, hungering after immortality that was about them so thanks to Melkor and his marring of Middle Earth men had a place where it was possible for them to live happily. I don't think Melkor intended this but I suppose it is a by product to his war on the Valar. The Valar who we know were error prone would not have realised that the paradise they created would harm men.

So I think it is right for men to worship Melkor as he saved them from the tyranny of the Valar EDIT:even unintended tyranny as it supposedly was

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by hewhoarisesinmight

I've read in many places that men couldn't cope in the undying land and that their lot there would be miserable what would have happened if Melkor had not driven the Valar out of Middle Earth. Men would have arisen and lived extremly short lives, hungering after immortality that was about them so thanks to Melkor and his marring of Middle Earth men had a place where it was possible for them to live happily. I don't think Melkor intended this but I suppose it is a by product to his war on the Valar. The Valar who we know were error prone would not have realised that the paradise they created would harm men.

So I think it is right for men to worship Melkor as he saved them from the tyranny of the Valar EDIT:even unintended tyranny as it supposedly was

Now that question just invites flame. But you won't get it from me because it's a fair point!

Just what was it that made Melkor such an attractive proposition? What was it that made Eru and Valar unattractive?

Of course the Valar eventually retreated over to Valinor and there they made their home; this was also the 'natural' place for the Elves to abide, and though they were not forced to go there, it was viewed as inappropriate for them to remain in Middle-earth. Valinor, as it says in The Silmarillion was a Perilous Realm for Men:

'The Doom of the World,' they said, 'One alone can change who made it. And were you so to voyage that escaping all deceits and snares you came indeed to Aman, the Blessed Realm, little would it profit you. For it is not the land of Manwe that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast.'

So to live too close to the Valar and Elves would be difficult for Men, they would fade all the more quickly as they would be close to far too many Fear that burned brightly, strongly and eternally; their own Fear would perish in such a Light. It's well worth asking if the presence of a whole phalanx of Valar in Middle-earth would make it unbearable for Men's Fear. I happen to think it also has something to do with an essential difference in nature between Valar/Elves and Men; that the Valar are impotent in the face of the rebellion of the Numenoreans and have to resort to Eru's help speaks volumes about their 'power', or lack of it, over Men's Free Will. And of course part of that nature is that the Valar and Elves are tied to the earth and cannot leave it whereas Men are Free.

There's a lot of truth in saying that Men who did not linger around Elves would also not be likely to learn about and hence yearn for Immortality. In that respect Melkor did do them a good service. But he also drove out a lot of knowledge and Art.

I wouldn't say they were right to worship Melkor though. I'd rather have been like a Hobbit and worshipped nothing but pipe-weed and ale.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

An interesting hypothesis.

The 'doom' of men was to leave the world for they were not bound to it. The Silmarillion tells us that their mortality was the gift of Eru (that, in itself is a whole other topic) so it was certainly against their nature to be immortal while in Middle Earth. Weather or not they had an afterlife different to the life of Arda, we know not and can only speculate.

Let us assume, for argument's sake, that there was some kind of afterlife for men after they died in Arda. Logic dictates that this would be something they would be more adapt to, else they wouldn't get it; they can't live indefinitely in Arda because they are not adapt to it. To ask weather or not it would be better for them not to exist or such is a question we cannot answer because we do not know what it would be like to not exist and so have no point of comparison.

Melkor's coming distracted them from this, yes and you could argue that the reaction of the Numenorians was proof that Melkor's distracting them was a good thing. But then one could argue that the other races upon Middle Earth seemed much contented (including the Dwarves, but that is a different subject).

In short... I don't know.

[Macalaure]

Interesting. This might be one more of the cases where Melkor's misdeed played into the hands of Eru in the end.

In the Akallabeth it is said that the Undying Lands don't confer immortality, but that the immortals hallow it. This suggests that, if Aman was not a place Men could abide in without suffering, the world before Aman was made, and where immortals were all over the place, would have the same effect. The world, the way the Valar made it, would be uninhabitable for Men - without the Valar's intention, of course. Then, again without intention, Melkor comes around and drives a good deal of the immortals away, mars here and there, and thus makes the world bearable for the second Children.

But it is intention which counts. Though everybody likes snowflakes, nobody thanks Melkor for them.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

If I continue on Hookbill's thoughts on afterlife, if it was supposed to be something the Men fitted better to, then Melkor certainly did a very awful job to scare them of death. And also, I'd think that for example the Númenoreans who worshiped Melkor (convinced that Eru is a phantom - TP???) would be quite, you know, perplexed after death. But these are just speculations, only random thoughts on that topic.

Which brings me to - hewhoarisesinmight, you are actually saying, I believe, more or less the things that Sauron said to Ar-Pharazon. "His name is Melkor, the Giver of Freedom."
Gandalf would possibly call it "Repeating the lies I always heard only from the mouths of the emissaries of Barad-Dur." I am not saying what you imply here is not true. But it is about twisting (the world often associated with Melkor, Sauron etc.) the point of view: I think it is right to assume that the presence of Valar in ME wouldn't be good for Men, it is the same as if they were in Aman, as Lal said. This was not their "cup of tea". This way, they could thank Melkor for this. But:
1) Don't forget that Melkor was Vala as well (Vala, is that what you said? Then your oath is sworn in vain!)
2) I highly doubt that the Men would have "peaceful life". We saw this at Númenor, and I think if Melkor ruled M-E, it would look similar. For example I highly doubt that most of the people there would like to participate on these human sacrifices (not mentioning that you always need someone to sacrifice).
3) As Lal said, a lot of Knowledge and Art would be lost. Especially for the "elf-lovers" this would certainly be a bad time. Lal, as you said about the hobbits, I'd like the same with for example walks in the forests under starlit skies, singing... but I am somehow afraid that part of the forests might have been burning and part of the stars will be clouded by black smoke from more Thangorodrim-like things. Mmm... also reminds me at the times of Ar-Adunakhor and further, the Elves ceased to come back to the shores of Númenor...
4) Worshiping Melkor for him getting rid of Valar is one thing, but this is the twisting I speak about: we seem to be forgetting that the other Valar had their parts in shaping Arda, and more than Melkor (although he did as well). "And many here worked no less than you." And I consider it important to have in mind that if there was "freedom" (if they'd have any, see #2) for which they could thank Melkor, they'd have to thank the same way Ulmo for water, Manwë for clouds, Yavanna for fruit and trees and vegetables, and so on.
5) And, please, mainly: Whatever Melkor did for Men's "freedom", it was obviously unintentional. So I wouldn't even worship him for it. The Valar created the world intentionally and when they came down to Arda, they knew that they are preparing something for the Children of Ilúvatar. So for these, they'd deserve the praises, for they worked on something for someone else. But Melkor didn't want anything but to get rid of Valar. And had there been

So to sum it up: Yes, perhaps Melkor did a good thing to force Valar out of Middle-Earth. But if any man wanted to worship Melkor, who did this unintentionally, I'd call it fair that he also had to worship - even more - the Valar, who shaped it, and Eru, who gave him life, so Melkor would be on the 16th place at best

[Elmo]

I wondered when someone would bite the bait I'd set - the bit about worshiping Melkor was a joke I'm sorry Legate I'm no emissary of Sauron but one of Aberdeen Football Club I'd probably worship Melkor if he can get Aberdeen to win something this year tho...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, since you posted it seriously - actually I was quite surprised that you posted it in "Books" and not in "Mirth", otherwise it'd be clear - I also replied seriously. (although...) I know that it is possible to meet people who are able to seriously argue that Frodo was Bilbo's son, that Sauron had a spotlight on top of his tower, or that Balrogs have wings, so you have to seriously expose the truths before them...

[Tar-Telperien]

hewhoarisesinmight, what a great question! I had never taken such a line of thought before. We know that this world was destined to be under the Dominion of Men eventually. Melkor did more than just about anyone to get the immortals (who Men really can't abide the proximity of for long, for a host of reasons) out of the area. In so doing, he himself (who was also an immortal, and so would have to leave eventually too) was massively weakened, allowing him to be taken from the world so Men could eek out some sort of free existence in it. This is an interesting way of viewing the situation. And after all, "Men most resemble Melkor of all the Valar". It would be easy to see him as a sort of benefactor.

However, since it was precisely Melkor's influence that caused the fear of death in Men, the good things he initiated tend to get cancelled out in my mind.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Just what was it that made Melkor such an attractive proposition? What was it that made Eru and Valar unattractive?

Assuming your question is supposed to echo the thoughts of Men when they first came into the world and met Melkor, the "Tale of Adanel" answers it fairly clearly. Men took Melkor as their master because he was the only one who would give them quick and easy answers about Life, the Universe, and Everything: "Therefore we revered him, and we were enthralled by him; and we depended upon his gifts, fearing to return to a life without them that now seemed poor and hard." Of course Men loved him. He was the only one who would pay them any attention; Eru had told them he didn't want to directly answer their questions, but preferred that they discover the answer for themselves. And we all know how much Men love attention.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And also, I'd think that for example the Númenoreans who worshiped Melkor (convinced that Eru is a phantom - TP???) would be quite, you know, perplexed after death. But these are just speculations, only random thoughts on that topic.

You don't say. "...[T]hey were afraid to die and go out into the dark, the realm of the lord that they had taken; and they cursed themselves in their agony," according to the Akallabêth.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Which brings me to - hewhoarisesinmight, you are actually saying, I believe, more or less the things that Sauron said to Ar-Pharazon. "His name is Melkor, the Giver of Freedom."

Well, Sauron said and meant more than just that. It wasn't just that Melkor would give Men strength to defy the Valar; it was also that denying Eru's existence, and the rightful supremacy of the Valar, made the Valar look like extremely malevolent Powers. By making the world seem like it was divided between the Valar and Melkor only, Sauron could easily tell the Númenóreans that they had denied Men immortality for no good reason at all and favored the Elves instead. Viewing the Valar in this sort of light makes them look cruel indeed! Hence the outright hatred and mistrust the Númenóreans had for everything they did.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

2) I highly doubt that the Men would have "peaceful life". We saw this at Númenor, and I think if Melkor ruled M-E, it would look similar. For example I highly doubt that most of the people there would like to participate on these human sacrifices (not mentioning that you always need someone to sacrifice).

I would.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Mmm... also reminds me at the times of Ar-Adunakhor and further, the Elves ceased to come back to the shores of Númenor...

Well, technically it was during Ar-Adûnakhôr's time that the Elves stopped coming, yes... but they actually continued to make secret voyages to Númenor until Ar-Gimilzôr's time. :P

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And I consider it important to have in mind that if there was "freedom" (if they'd have any, see #2) for which they could thank Melkor, they'd have to thank the same way Ulmo for water, Manwë for clouds, Yavanna for fruit and trees and vegetables, and so on.

But the Valar didn't give us nice gifts and the answers to life that we looked for!

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And, please, mainly: Whatever Melkor did for Men's "freedom", it was obviously unintentional.

Are you absolutely sure about that?

Originally Posted by Volo

Melkor should have been allowed to destroy the human race, if it was his intention (Was it?). Eru was just too gready to let go of his Children. The destruction of either Melkor or the human race would have been the greatest gift to Men.

I sometimes feel this way too. If Men got so corrupted that Eru had to alter their lives that much, and if that potential was inherent in their being, then why should they have existed at all? Particularly if so much (namely the future of the world) depended on them.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Tar-Telperien

We know that this world was destined to be under the Dominion of Men eventually.

Old Fëanor fella would be certainly pleased hearing that
Oh, and by the way, was it not the same Melkor who first implied this idea to him?

Originally Posted by Tar-Telperien

If Men got so corrupted that Eru had to alter their lives that much, and if that potential was inherent in their being, then why should they have existed at all? Particularly if so much (namely the future of the world) depended on them.

You happen to hit an interesting thing here. How comes that the Elves were suited to live longer (well, infinitely) in the world, but in the end, they all departed? Something strange here. "Diminish and depart."

[Tar-Telperien]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

You happen to hit an interesting thing here. How comes that the Elves were suited to live longer (well, infinitely) in the world, but in the end, they all departed? Something strange here. "Diminish and depart."

Well, what I was actually getting at is something that seems to be the "fundamental horrifying mystery of Ilúvatar's creatures". Why would Eru give the race that is least strong and understanding the tasks of healing and inheriting the Earth, and eventually singing the Second Music? Is not the race of Men utterly unqualified for such a thing, by being so weak, gullible, and quick to self-deception? This is one of the most disturbing ideas in the whole Legendarium to me. Why entrust something so deep, so important, so great with such a "foolish and wicked" race?

Here's a collection of quotes to bring this issue more fully into focus (sorry, hewhoarisesinmight, for derailing one of your threads once more):

Originally Posted by Finrod, in the Athrabeth

This, then, I propound, was the errand of Men, not the followers, but the heirs and fulfillers of all: to heal the Marring of Arda, already foreshadowed before their devising; and to do more, as agents of the magnificence of Eru: to enlarge the Music and surpass the Vision of the World! ... I was thinking that by the Second Children we [the Elves] might have been delivered from death.... I beheld as a vision Arda Remade; and there the Eldar completed but not ended could abide in the present for ever, and there walk, maybe, with the Children of Men, their deliverers...

Originally Posted by Andreth

What then is to be done now? For we speak as if these things are, or as if they will assuredly be. But Men have been diminished and their power is taken away. We look for no Arda Remade: darkness lies before us, into which we stare in vain. If by our aid your everlasting mansions were to be prepared, they will not be builded now.

Originally Posted by Tolkien, in the Commentary to the Athrabeth

[Finrod]... has a vision of Men as the agents of the 'unmarring' of Arda, not merely undoing the marring or evil brought by Melkor, but by producing a third thing, 'Arda Re-made'... Andreth then says that in that case the disaster to Men was appalling; for this re-making (if indeed it was the proper functioning of Men) cannot now be achieved. Finrod evidently remains in the hope that it will be achieved, though he does not say how that could be. He now sees, however, that the power of Melkor was greater than had been understood... if he had been able to change Men, and so destroy the plan.

But the power of Melkor over material things was plainly vast.... It was for this reason, no doubt, that he had been totally successful with Men.... His power was wielded over matter, and through it. But by nature the fëar of Men were in much less strong control of their hröar than was the case with the Elves.

If Finrod's reading of the situation was correct, then Men completely failed in their point of being. And yet how could they do otherwise? They were made weaker from their very beginning. Yet again we are shown why estel is "a fool's hope": Eru seems to give the most grave tasks to those who have the least ability to fulfill them! In this we see a concept that is quite foreign to Christianity: namely that the hopes of other races and the wellbeing of Creation as a whole was depending on Men to do their utmost to help. When Men failed, others suffered.

Oh, and as for the Elves diminishing, Tolkien answered that in his Commentary, as well:

Originally Posted by From Author's Note 7 to the Athrabeth Commentary

The 'waning' of Elvish hröar must therefore be part of the History of Arda as envisaged by Eru, and the mode in which the Elves were to make way for the Dominion of Men. The Elves find their supercession by Men a mystery, and a cause of grief; for they say that Men, at least so largely governed as they are by the evil of Melkor, have less and less love for Arda in itself, and are largely busy destroying it in the attempt to dominate it.

(This last part is bolded because it also fits in with the point I was trying to make with the other quotes above, namely, the inherent inadequacy of Men in the face of the crushing gravity of their responsibility.)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Tar-Telperien

Well, what I was actually getting at is something that seems to be the "fundamental horrifying mystery of Ilúvatar's creatures". Why would Eru give the race that is least strong and understanding the tasks of healing and inheriting the Earth, and eventually singing the Second Music? Is not the race of Men utterly unqualified for such a thing, by being so weak, gullible, and quick to self-deception? This is one of the most disturbing ideas in the whole Legendarium to me. Why entrust something so deep, so important, so great with such a "foolish and wicked" race?
(...)
Yet again we are shown why estel is "a fool's hope": Eru seems to give the most grave tasks to those who have the least ability to fulfill them! In this we see a concept that is quite foreign to Christianity: namely that the hopes of other races and the wellbeing of Creation as a whole was depending on Men to do their utmost to help.

Thanks for this - with what you wrote, you made it clear to me. I understand now why it is like that. In this we see a concept that is quite foreign to Christianity, you say. Actually, not: this is Christianity in its very definition. "Estel" as "fool's hope", I am pretty sure, is Tolkien's projection of the Christian hope to this secondary world.

Originally Posted by 1 Corinthians 1; 21-29

For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him.

Okay, just to make clear answer to the question which was raised. Let's continue with the primary subject of this topic.