Riders Of Rohan - Anglo Saxons?

[Wayland]

Are the Riders of Rohan Tolkein's answer to the Anglo Saxons in Lotr? The names, portrayal etc. all seem to suggest that the historical A.S. where a great inspiration at least.
Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere.

[Břicho]

Their language, too.

Tolkien mentioned in one of the appendices--I believe in the "languages" appendix(I'm at work now, and can't check up on it--hell, I'd be too lazy to do it anyway-- that he didn't mean to imply that they were similiar to " the Anglo-Saxons" otherwise and that the chief similiarity was that they were a more primitive tribe inhabiting the former lands of an older and higher culture.

He claims that he has "translated" their langauge into Old English in order to represent the fact that the language that they spoke was an archaic language related to Adunaic--WEstron, which he has translated into "modern English".

However, translator's conceit aside, they are clearly a north Germanic- like tribe((other t han the fact that they fight mainly on horseback, which isn't really like the Anglo-Saxons).

It has engaged me at times to think about who the other tribes of "good Northmen" might correlate to...Beornings, Bardings=Scandinavians, Germans, etc? Haradrim=Arabs?
I've spent long minutes pondering these things.

[Wayland]

Originally Posted by Bricho

I've spent long minutes pondering these things.

Thanks Bricho, me too I thought I spotted representations of Picts and Celts as well. I guess we could also equate Gondor with Rome and Mordor with Attila's mighty army!
Or is that taking things a bit too far?

[The Might]

Yes, I do believe that this is what Tolkien implies
We can for example see that the names of the Kings of Rhovanion are Gothic in origin

It is an interesting fact, not referred to I believe in any of my father's writings, that the names of the early kings and princes of the Northmen and the Éothéod are Gothic in form, not Old English (Anglo-Saxon) as in the case of Léod, Eorl, and the later Rohirrim. Vidugavia is Latinized in spelling, representing Gothic Widugauja ("wood-dweller"), a recorded Gothic name, and similarly Vidumavi Gothic Widumawi ("wood-maiden"). Marhwini and Marhari contain the Gothic word marh "horse," corresponding to Old English mearh, plural mearas, the word used in The Lord of the Rings for the horses of Rohan; wini "friend" corresponds to Old English winë, seen in the names of several of the Kings of the Mark. Since, as is explained in Appendix F (II), the language of Rohan was "made to resemble ancient English," the names of the ancestors of the Rohirrim are cast into the forms of the earliest recorded Germanic language. ~ UT, Cirion and Eorl, note 6

So we do see that as far as languages are concerned, the Rohirrim clearly would represent the Anglo-Saxons. The Beornings and the Woodmen of Mirkwood are said to have also been related to the people of the Eotheod, so they also must represent some people related to the Anglo-Saxons, probably also originating from the Goths.

Picts and Celts had different ancestors. The Beornings are inspired by berserkers from Norse mythology, so its pretty hard to find them a corespondent in real history, perhaps some Norse tribe. The Woodmen would in my opinion rather be Jutes or Frisians.



As far as their

[Mänwe]

Indeed it is plain that a great many names throughout the races of Middle-earth were derived from Anglo-Saxon though I could not find an exact quote from Appendix F that stated he did not mean for them to appear similar to Anglo-Saxon, however Břicho has correctly said that the language was derived from the Westron.

“The Westron was a Mannish speech, though enriched and softened under Elvish influence.” – (Appendix F, Of Men)

This is reflected in the word “Rohan” which was a softened form of “Rochand”,

“Rohan. I cannot understand why the name of a country (stated to be Elvish) should be associated with anything Germanic; still less with the only remotely similar O.N. rann 'house', which is incidentally not at all appropriate to a still partly mobile and nomadic people of horse-breeders! In their language (as represented) rann in any case would have the A-S form ræn (<rænn <ræzn <razn; cf. Gothic razn 'house'). The name of [the] country obviously cannot be separated from the Sindarin name of the Eorlingas: Rohirrim. Rohan is stated (III 391,394) to be a later softened form of Rochand. It is derived from Elvish *rokkō 'swift horse for riding' (Q. rokko, S. roch) + a suffix frequent in names of lands.” - (Letter #297)

Of note from this passage is that Tolkien clearly states that Anglo-Saxon can be the only language from which he has derived the archaic language of the Rohirrim, more befitting to the ‘still partly mobile and nomadic people’, Westron was the language of the ‘Father’s of Men’, the Rohirric language was a derivation,

“The language of Rohan I have accordingly made to resemble ancient English, since it was related both (more distantly) to the Common Speech, and (very closely) to the former tongue of the northern Hobbits, and was in comparison with the Westron archaic. “ - (Appendix F, On Translation)

The languages appear “tiered” in development.

Originally posted by Břicho

“…the chief similiarity was that they were a more primitive tribe inhabiting the former lands of an older and higher culture.”

The derivations are an illustration of this; Westron was the purest form, from which all the others sprouted. And consequently the most wide spread,

“In the course of that age it had become the native language of nearly all the speaking-peoples (save the Elves) who dwelt within the bounds of the old kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor; that is along all the coasts from Umbar northwards to the Bay of Forochel, and inland as far as the Misty Mountains and the Ephel Dúath.” - (Appendix F, The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age.)

Tolkien states later in one of his letters the reasons why he used Anglo-Saxon, and further supports my point that for him it was the only ‘base’ for its languages,

“The reason for using 'Anglo-Saxon' in the nomenclature and occasional glimpses of the language of the Eorlingas – as a device of 'translation' – is given in Appendix F. From which it follows that 'Anglo-Saxon' is not only a 'fertile field', but the sole field in which to look for the origin and meaning of words or names belonging to the speech of the Mark;...” - (letter #297)

Interestingly being Old English or Anglo-Saxon and Germanic is one of the same, being western Germanic in origin consequently similar to Old Frisian and Old Saxon from which the language is derived. To all accounts it too is similar to Old Norse. Evidence for similarities between a Nordic culture and that of the Rohirrim is plain in the adornments of their housing, notably figureheads.

Amongst the letters is also a reference to the origins of the language of the men of Dale had it been shown in the trilogy,

“The language of Dale and the Long Lake would, if it appeared, be represented as more or less Scandinavian in character;…” (Letter #144)

[MatthewM]

Quick question, how does one pronounce

"Vidugavia"?