Matriarchal or Patriarchal societies in ME ??? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

The Might · 01-06-2007, 11:53 AM

Yep, it's time for me to start my first, as I deem it at least, serious thread here on the Downs, and I'm chosing a matter I have been thinking of for quite some time.
I am definitely not talking about all the inhabitants of ME, but about each of the different ethnical and socio-political groups, and also not about only one time period but about all the history of ME and perhaps also the evolution of these societies in time.

I am waiting to see your responses.

Estelyn Telcontar · 01-06-2007, 12:23 PM

We do read of at least one matriarchal society in LotR, and that in a Hobbit-like surrounding - Gollum's family is described by Gandalf in 'The Shadow of the Past':

Quote:

...a clever-handed and quiet-footed little people.
...of hobbit-kind...
There was among them a family of high repute, for it was larger and wealthier than most, and it was ruled by a grandmother of the folk, stern and wise in old lore, such as they had.
...his grandmother, desiring peace, expelled him from the family and turned him out of her hole.

Now, we don't know if this matriarchal family structure was the rule or the exception among Gollum's people, but the context shows that the grandmother was the one who made decisions concerning family welfare. Also, the fact that it is called "her hole" shows that she owned the property, always an important factor in power structures - ownership equals power.

The Might · 01-06-2007, 12:51 PM

I thought of the Stoors as well, and since at one point the Hobbits were still one folk it could be that all Hobbits used at one point a matriarchal system, and that afterwards those in the Shire changed this habit and adopted new ones perhaps similar to those in Arnor

In the First Age we also have examples of people being led by a woman - the folk of Haleth or Haladin, though it is important in my opinion to keep in mind that she only claimed this title after her brother and father had been killed by Orcs in Thargelion
Still, the fact that her people followed her and did not look for another person to rule them, shows that these Men war open minded, unlike those in later ages where it is visible the role of women in society had decreased a lot

Lalwendë · 01-06-2007, 12:57 PM

Well two powerful matriarchs that I wouldn't like to tangle with are Galadriel and Lobelia.

Lobelia is probably the most traditional type of matriarch and a character type I instantly recognise: the formidable wife and mother who is quite determined that her family, her husabnd and her son will do well for themselves, and what's more, be seen to be doing well for themselves. Anyone in the UK will know what I mean if I raise the name of Hyacinth Bucket (pronounced Bouquet).

But for all her snobbery and pushiness, Lobelia has a good heart in the end, and manages to battle the ruffians with the aid of her trusty umbrella.

Galadriel appears to defer to Celeborn, but we know who is in charge. She first has the Elessar and later has Nenya, both crafted by Celebrimbor and gifted to her (he is in love with Galadriel but his love remains unrequited, which hints that she exerts a powerful romantic attraction too), and she makes use of them to strengthen (to create?) the magic of Lothlorien, a place which seems to act as a 'temporal shift'. Galadriel seeks to exercise power, certainly at first, and she's just one example demonstrating to us that Tolkien was not (as many hapless critics say) dismissive of women. I wonder what her apparent public deference to Celeborn tells us about Elven society?

littlemanpoet · 01-06-2007, 06:06 PM

There are patriarchs in patriarchal societies,
and matriarchs in patriarchal societies;
likewise, there are patriarchs in matriarchal societies,
and matriarchs in matriarchal societies.

Of those named so far (Galadriel, Haleth, Lobelia, and 'Grandma Gollum'), the first three are matriarchs in patriarchal societies. Only Grandma Gollum is a matriarch in a potentially matriarchal society.

Numenor is another example of matriarchs in a patriarchal society, and is the most well-recorded instance of it: we have record that the law of the land was actually changed in order to make sure that the eldest daughter ascends the throne in the absence of a son. This law was ignored by certain treasonous usurpers, but it still was the law.

The conclusion is, as far as we can tell from Tolkien's writings, that Middle Earth appears to have been made up exclusively of demonstrably patriarchal societies. Within these societies, the standing of women varied from culture to culture according to historic developments within each.

The Might · 01-06-2007, 06:14 PM

Good point littlemanpoet, I guess you are right...
Also consdering that all other societies seem to be patriarchal, I expect the Stoors were as well, and that perhaps in absence of Smeagol's grandfather or of another elderly family member the decision was made by the eldest person - his grandmother
Even Eru is presented just like the God of Christians as a patriarchal figure
Even Melian could be probably considered a matriarch, Thingol might have been king, but everyone knows who really was the boss in Doriath and who kept it safe.
I wonder what would have however happened had Galadriel accepted the Ring...perhaps a change ?

littlemanpoet · 01-06-2007, 06:31 PM

On Galadriel, you can bet that if she had accepted the Ring, there would have been an outright matriarchy ... but not a good one. (Note that I distinguish between "matriarchy" and "evil/bad"; they are not necessarily the same thing.

)

Regarding Melian, you are still dealing with a patriarchal society. Thingol was still the one who made the decisions, usually listening and making use of Melian's wise counsel, but not always; and when he failed to take her counsel, his decisions failed.

I find it very interesting and gratifying how Tolkien consistently included wise women as powerful influences for good within patriarchal societies.

01-06-2007, 11:53 AM	#1
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,205	Matriarchal or Patriarchal societies in ME ??? Yep, it's time for me to start my first, as I deem it at least, serious thread here on the Downs, and I'm chosing a matter I have been thinking of for quite some time. I am definitely not talking about all the inhabitants of ME, but about each of the different ethnical and socio-political groups, and also not about only one time period but about all the history of ME and perhaps also the evolution of these societies in time. I am waiting to see your responses. __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown

01-06-2007, 12:51 PM	#3
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,205	I thought of the Stoors as well, and since at one point the Hobbits were still one folk it could be that all Hobbits used at one point a matriarchal system, and that afterwards those in the Shire changed this habit and adopted new ones perhaps similar to those in Arnor In the First Age we also have examples of people being led by a woman - the folk of Haleth or Haladin, though it is important in my opinion to keep in mind that she only claimed this title after her brother and father had been killed by Orcs in Thargelion Still, the fact that her people followed her and did not look for another person to rule them, shows that these Men war open minded, unlike those in later ages where it is visible the role of women in society had decreased a lot __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown

01-06-2007, 12:57 PM	#4
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	Well two powerful matriarchs that I wouldn't like to tangle with are Galadriel and Lobelia. Lobelia is probably the most traditional type of matriarch and a character type I instantly recognise: the formidable wife and mother who is quite determined that her family, her husabnd and her son will do well for themselves, and what's more, be seen to be doing well for themselves. Anyone in the UK will know what I mean if I raise the name of Hyacinth Bucket (pronounced Bouquet). But for all her snobbery and pushiness, Lobelia has a good heart in the end, and manages to battle the ruffians with the aid of her trusty umbrella. Galadriel appears to defer to Celeborn, but we know who is in charge. She first has the Elessar and later has Nenya, both crafted by Celebrimbor and gifted to her (he is in love with Galadriel but his love remains unrequited, which hints that she exerts a powerful romantic attraction too), and she makes use of them to strengthen (to create?) the magic of Lothlorien, a place which seems to act as a 'temporal shift'. Galadriel seeks to exercise power, certainly at first, and she's just one example demonstrating to us that Tolkien was not (as many hapless critics say) dismissive of women. I wonder what her apparent public deference to Celeborn tells us about Elven society? __________________ Gordon's alive!

01-06-2007, 06:06 PM	#5
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	There are patriarchs in patriarchal societies, and matriarchs in patriarchal societies; likewise, there are patriarchs in matriarchal societies, and matriarchs in matriarchal societies. Of those named so far (Galadriel, Haleth, Lobelia, and 'Grandma Gollum'), the first three are matriarchs in patriarchal societies. Only Grandma Gollum is a matriarch in a potentially matriarchal society. Numenor is another example of matriarchs in a patriarchal society, and is the most well-recorded instance of it: we have record that the law of the land was actually changed in order to make sure that the eldest daughter ascends the throne in the absence of a son. This law was ignored by certain treasonous usurpers, but it still was the law. The conclusion is, as far as we can tell from Tolkien's writings, that Middle Earth appears to have been made up exclusively of demonstrably patriarchal societies. Within these societies, the standing of women varied from culture to culture according to historic developments within each. Last edited by littlemanpoet; 01-06-2007 at 06:27 PM.

01-06-2007, 06:14 PM	#6
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,205	Good point littlemanpoet, I guess you are right... Also consdering that all other societies seem to be patriarchal, I expect the Stoors were as well, and that perhaps in absence of Smeagol's grandfather or of another elderly family member the decision was made by the eldest person - his grandmother Even Eru is presented just like the God of Christians as a patriarchal figure Even Melian could be probably considered a matriarch, Thingol might have been king, but everyone knows who really was the boss in Doriath and who kept it safe. I wonder what would have however happened had Galadriel accepted the Ring...perhaps a change ? __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown

01-06-2007, 06:31 PM	#7
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	On Galadriel, you can bet that if she had accepted the Ring, there would have been an outright matriarchy ... but not a good one. (Note that I distinguish between "matriarchy" and "evil/bad"; they are not necessarily the same thing. ) Regarding Melian, you are still dealing with a patriarchal society. Thingol was still the one who made the decisions, usually listening and making use of Melian's wise counsel, but not always; and when he failed to take her counsel, his decisions failed. I find it very interesting and gratifying how Tolkien consistently included wise women as powerful influences for good within patriarchal societies.