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Old 12-30-2006, 09:30 PM   #1
The Failed king
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The three rings of power that the elve had

hi i don't know if this has been discussed but i know that sauron never knew who had the three rings the elves hid away from him nethertheless didn't saruman know so why didn't he tell sauron
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Old 12-31-2006, 02:33 AM   #2
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Narya The White Messenger and the White Lady give an answer

That's quite interesting thought. But could he possibly have told Sauron? I wonder if Saruman, being the part of the White Council and all, had known about the Elven Rings...
We know that the Rings were his domain, he studied all he could about them, as Gandalf himself says in the Council of Elrond:
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The lore of the Elven-rings, great and small, is his province. He has long studied it, seeking the lost secrets of their making...
And since it was well known that there were some "Three rings to the elven kings under the sky", it is safe to assume that Saruman might be interested also in their whereabouts. We know that Saruman discovered that Gandalf had Narya, as is written in the Unfinished Tales:
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And the Grey Messenger took the Ring, and kept it ever secret; yet the White Messenger (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this gift, and begrudged it, and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore to the Grey, which afterwards became manifest.
However, we don't know what Saruman knew about the other two Rings. I am quite convinced that Elrond and Galadriel never told him about the Rings they had. The Rings were secret even between the elves of Rivendell and Lórien, although the inhabitants might have suspected something like that, it was never explicitely told that the Rings really are there. Galadriel revealed her Ring to Frodo as if it had been a great mystery:
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'Yes,' she said, divining his thought, `it is not permitted to speak of it, and Elrond could not do so. But it cannot be hidden from the Ring-bearer, and one who has seen the Eye. Verily it is in the land of Lórien upon the finger of Galadriel that one of the Three remains. This is Nenya, the Ring of Adamant, and I am its keeper.' - The Mirror of Galadriel
Galadriel, I think, speaks to us very clearly in this point. The rings are tabu. And as we also know, she did not like Saruman, so even if she wanted to tell someone about the Ring, it would certainly not be him.
Continuing this speech, Galadriel also speaks about Sauron, that
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`He suspects, but he does not know – not yet.'
We might assume the same about Saruman. He could have suspected, but he wouldn't know for sure. On the other hand, we are told that Saruman was "skilled to uncover all secrets" and that he revealed Gandalf's possession of Narya, hence, it is not impossible that similar ways he discovered the truth about Elrond and/or Galadriel's Rings.

But even if Saruman had known about the Rings, I am not sure if he would have revealed that knowledge to Sauron. Personally I think he would not - he didn't tell Sauron about the Shire, for example, and many other things. Saruman played with his own cards, and he wanted to claim the One Ring for his own, he had no need to tell Sauron - even if he was in situation where he needed to "buy" Sauron's trust by providing information, I'm sure he could have used some less important information to satisfy the questioner. And if he would have been explicitely asked, he could have repeated the words of Galadriel: "I have my own suspicions, but I am not sure, not yet. Perhaps later, yes m'lord, surely I'll look into this."

This wouldn't be of much use to Sauron, because from what we are told in the UT (The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn"), Sauron had the same suspicions already from the Second Age:
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Concerning the Three Rings Sauron could learn nothing from Celebrimbor; and he had him put to death. But he guessed the truth, that the Three had been committed to Elvish guardians: and that must mean to Galadriel and Gil-galad.
So the only thing Sauron wouldn't know would be if Galadriel received two Rings and Gil-galad one, or vice versa, or if someone else got the third, and where the Rings have gone after the death of Gil-Galad.

And the last thing. Even if Sauron had learned the whereabouts of the Rings, it wouldn't be of much use to him, it would only help him in marking the most important targets of his armed assault. Only if he (or Saruman) gained the possession of the One Ring, they will be able to uncover and destroy all that has been done with the Elven Rings.
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Old 12-31-2006, 02:46 AM   #3
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What Sauron could not know was wether Gil-Galad and Galadriel had passed them on. . .well, Galadriel probably wouldn't unless she had two.

I know that it says that Saruman became aware of the ring, but for some reason I have alwas thought of it as if he suspected it, but did not know it. That could also explain why the ring was not taken from Gandalf during his imprissonment.

It is clear that Sauron did not know who had the rings, but meerly suspected sertain people. Now this either means that Saruman did not know either or that he found it convinient to keep Sauron in the dark about this. . .

I guess one just have to decide what is most plausible.
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Old 12-31-2006, 05:26 AM   #4
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Sauron knew the Three existed. When they were first worn, their bearers 'perceived' that Sauron, via the One Ring, could 'perceive' them, so they took them off again.

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As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be the master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings.
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they were given into the hands of the Wise, who concealed them and never again used them openly while Sauron kept the Ruling Ring. Therefore the Three remained unsullied, for they were forged by Celebrimbor alone, and the hand of Sauron had never touched them; yet they also were subject to the One.
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Old 12-31-2006, 09:44 AM   #5
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Yes but that was before his fall. . .he could not have known who had them at the time of LotR unless Saruman told him.
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Old 12-31-2006, 09:54 AM   #6
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Yes but that was before his fall. . .he could not have known who had them at the time of LotR unless Saruman told him.
I reckon he could have had a pretty good idea. Sauron had his minions all over the place so he knew about Lothlorien (and indeed it had come under attack from Orcs so that suggests he was suspicious) and he knew who was powerful in Middle-earth. If I'd been Sauron I could have made myself a good shortlist. The one that might have been a bit of a curveball though would have been Gandalf being a ringbearer; Sauron may well have suspected Saruman instead, had he even suspected a non-Elf of having one of the three.
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