Where the heck is Belegost - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

goldfinger · 12-23-2006, 10:40 PM

I'm so confused with the location Belegost. I see it in the Silm. and it's a little north of Nogrod, but in the atlas of Middle earth Mrs. Fonstad has it far to the South. I'm a self proclaimed Dwarf scholar, but I have know idea which is correct. Someone please help!

Boromir88 · 12-23-2006, 11:17 PM

I don't have Fonstad's Atlas...in general it's a good book for reference and maps. Maybe one of the better ones. However, Fonstad did not have access to all of Tolkien's writings therefor there are some inaccuracies with it.

Belegost should be east of Mount Dolmed and north of Nogrod. Visually, I don't know where Fonstad has it.

Tevildo · 12-23-2006, 11:30 PM

goldfinger,

I am looking at page 13 of Fonstad's Atlas. Fonstad does show Belegost about 150 miles south of Nogrod. I would definitely go with Silm on this one!

A_Brandybuck · 12-24-2006, 03:34 PM

I have two versions of the Atlas: the old one and the new one.

In the old one, both dwarven mansions are placed around Mount Dolmed rather north, whereas in the new one Belegost is placed in the far south. But the new one is a revision of the old one with access to HoME. The old one was made without HoME.

But I remember a quote in UT, where it is said, that Nogrod and Belegost are not far away from the lane Nenuial and therefore I would go with placing Belegost further north, near Nogrod.

Gil-Galad · 12-25-2006, 11:45 AM

The Blue Mountains are where Belegost and Nogrod resided, in the second age, the blue mountains were ripped open and that where we get Mithlond, The Grey Havens, Nogrod and Belegost was both north of the river that became the bay.

Alcuin · 12-25-2006, 11:51 PM

I believe Nogrod was destroyed in the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age, in which Beleriand was broken and sank below the waves. If you line up the maps, you will see that a huge hole was rent in Ered Luin, creating the Gulf of Lhûn: in the process, I think Nogrod was utterly ruined, if not completely destroyed. Belegost might have survived in damaged form into the Fourth Age. “Appendix B” of RotK says that around II 40, “Many Dwarves leaving their old cities in Ered Luin go to Moria and swell its numbers.” These cities must be Belegost and Nogrod.

In The Treason of Isengard, “The First Map”, Map I shows Belegost well south of the Gulf of Lhûn in the Ered Luin. This would be in the mountains near the westward-reaching spur south of the Lhûn. In the commentary on this map, the test reads, “There were and always remained some Dwarves on the eastern side of Ered Lindon, where the very ancient mansions of Nogrod and Belegost had been – not far from Nenuial; but they had transferred most of their strength to Khazad-dûm.” These maps were drawn in 1943.

The map, section 2, in “The Later Quenta Silmarillion” in War of the Jewels shows Belegost north of Mount Dolmed and Nogrod south of it. Part 13, “Concerning the Dwarves”, §125 says that “‘Belegost was in Eredlindon south of Beleriand’ … seems to represent a reversion to an older conception of the place of the Dwarf-cities”, and then refers to the same map. These maps seem to date from the 1950s, if they were constructed with the rest of the text of “The Later Quenta Silmarillion”. (See the introductory text to that section of War of the Jewels.)

Morgoth’s Ring, “Annals of Aman”, entry for Valerian Year 1250, §84 states that it was the dwarves of Belegost who helped Thingol delve Menegroth. Since it was the Dwarves of Nogrod who killed Thingol out of lust for the Nauglamír with the Silmaril set in it, and the Dwarves of Nogrod who sacked Doriath while “the Dwarves of Belegost sought to dissuade them from their purpose” (Silmarillion, “Of the Ruin of Doriath”), it may be that Nogrod was destroyed.

I do not know how Tolkien finally settled on this matter. Belegost is not marked in the same place on the Lord of the Rings as it was in the 1943 map; in fact, it is not marked at all. Nogrod would be where the Gulf of Lhûn lies in both the 1943 and the 1950s maps.

12-23-2006, 10:40 PM	#1
goldfinger Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: KC, Missouri Posts: 60	Where the heck is Belegost I'm so confused with the location Belegost. I see it in the Silm. and it's a little north of Nogrod, but in the atlas of Middle earth Mrs. Fonstad has it far to the South. I'm a self proclaimed Dwarf scholar, but I have know idea which is correct. Someone please help!

12-23-2006, 11:17 PM	#2
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,518	I don't have Fonstad's Atlas...in general it's a good book for reference and maps. Maybe one of the better ones. However, Fonstad did not have access to all of Tolkien's writings therefor there are some inaccuracies with it. Belegost should be east of Mount Dolmed and north of Nogrod. Visually, I don't know where Fonstad has it. __________________ Fenris Penguin

12-23-2006, 11:30 PM	#3
Tevildo Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Curled up on Melko's lap Posts: 425	goldfinger, I am looking at page 13 of Fonstad's Atlas. Fonstad does show Belegost about 150 miles south of Nogrod. I would definitely go with Silm on this one! __________________ Now Tevildo was a mighty cat--the mightiest of all--and possessed of an evil spirit,...and he was in Melko's constant following; and that cat had all cats subject to him, and he and his subjects were the chasers and getters of meat for Melko's table.

12-24-2006, 03:34 PM	#4
A_Brandybuck Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 95	I have two versions of the Atlas: the old one and the new one. In the old one, both dwarven mansions are placed around Mount Dolmed rather north, whereas in the new one Belegost is placed in the far south. But the new one is a revision of the old one with access to HoME. The old one was made without HoME. But I remember a quote in UT, where it is said, that Nogrod and Belegost are not far away from the lane Nenuial and therefore I would go with placing Belegost further north, near Nogrod. __________________ „I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

12-25-2006, 11:45 AM	#5
Gil-Galad Psyche of Prince Immortal Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Above a Parapet Obvious exits are: North, South, and Dennis Posts: 4,734	The Blue Mountains are where Belegost and Nogrod resided, in the second age, the blue mountains were ripped open and that where we get Mithlond, The Grey Havens, Nogrod and Belegost was both north of the river that became the bay. __________________ Love doesn't blow up and get killed.

12-25-2006, 11:51 PM	#6
Alcuin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Nurn Posts: 73	I believe Nogrod was destroyed in the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age, in which Beleriand was broken and sank below the waves. If you line up the maps, you will see that a huge hole was rent in Ered Luin, creating the Gulf of Lhûn: in the process, I think Nogrod was utterly ruined, if not completely destroyed. Belegost might have survived in damaged form into the Fourth Age. “Appendix B” of RotK says that around II 40, “Many Dwarves leaving their old cities in Ered Luin go to Moria and swell its numbers.” These cities must be Belegost and Nogrod. In The Treason of Isengard, “The First Map”, Map I shows Belegost well south of the Gulf of Lhûn in the Ered Luin. This would be in the mountains near the westward-reaching spur south of the Lhûn. In the commentary on this map, the test reads, “There were and always remained some Dwarves on the eastern side of Ered Lindon, where the very ancient mansions of Nogrod and Belegost had been – not far from Nenuial; but they had transferred most of their strength to Khazad-dûm.” These maps were drawn in 1943. The map, section 2, in “The Later Quenta Silmarillion” in War of the Jewels shows Belegost north of Mount Dolmed and Nogrod south of it. Part 13, “Concerning the Dwarves”, §125 says that “‘Belegost was in Eredlindon south of Beleriand’ … seems to represent a reversion to an older conception of the place of the Dwarf-cities”, and then refers to the same map. These maps seem to date from the 1950s, if they were constructed with the rest of the text of “The Later Quenta Silmarillion”. (See the introductory text to that section of War of the Jewels.) Morgoth’s Ring, “Annals of Aman”, entry for Valerian Year 1250, §84 states that it was the dwarves of Belegost who helped Thingol delve Menegroth. Since it was the Dwarves of Nogrod who killed Thingol out of lust for the Nauglamír with the Silmaril set in it, and the Dwarves of Nogrod who sacked Doriath while “the Dwarves of Belegost sought to dissuade them from their purpose” (Silmarillion, “Of the Ruin of Doriath”), it may be that Nogrod was destroyed. I do not know how Tolkien finally settled on this matter. Belegost is not marked in the same place on the Lord of the Rings as it was in the 1943 map; in fact, it is not marked at all. Nogrod would be where the Gulf of Lhûn lies in both the 1943 and the 1950s maps.