What's this?!

[Kuruharan]

A Kuruharan topic that doesn't revolve around Dwarves?! Is he sick?!!

Well...yes, in fact he is.

Anyway, while convalescing I was thumbing through the Tale of Years and it suddenly struck me that for an allegedly feudal kingdom, Gondor seemed miraculously free of the sort of civil strife that historically beset feudal societies (particularly in Medieval Europe). There is only one major internal conflict mentioned in Gondor's history and that had more to do with genealogy than power structure. Then there is also this business about Gondor building an empire (which is not something one normally sees feudal societies able to accomplish, as the lords typically prefer to fight each other than conquer outsiders). Of course, there is the example of Arnor that broke up into pieces.

This is all a bit confusing.

Was Gondor really a feudal system? Was its feudalism something that developed after the failure of the kings? Was it something that Aragorn would try to eradicate as king?

We wonders...

[Raynor]

I don't think that Gondor revolved around fiefs and the oath elation of lord-vassal, these being among the foremost characteristics of feudalism. We do have mentionings of provinces, but these most likely are administrative regions. The cases in which oaths are involved are not relevant either - be they the oath of the stewards, or the oath of Eorl. In fact, the only relation I could describe as feudal is that between King Aragorn and Prince Faramir, whereby one is granted land administration in exchange of fealty, counselling and military aid.

And may I wish you a quick recovery and happy holidays

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Gondor was, in some ways, an ideal state. A descendant of Númenor, the blessed land, as much as Arnor was. The feudals of Gondor were all responsible, caring of people, serving the crown - or later, the stewardship - and there was no rivalry between them in any ways, except for these moments, when there occured something like the schizm of Rómendacil&co., which you probably had in mind. Possibly there were some troubles over local little bits of country, but they all were solved peacefully by the judgement of the higher authority (the King or steward, or just some higher rank feudal), or merely by diplomatic ways. You have to consider however, that Gondor as being raised more or less to an "ideal state" in Middle-Earth would, possibly (methinks) mean that its inhabitants were according to the Christian standards of law (as Tolkien being Christian), meaning taking authorities as granted from God (in Middle-Earth, Eru, or Valar, or whatever). This would I think very well explain how it was possible that only one big problem occured, and that it was at the moment when there someone who would have normally inherited the crown was not actually up to the standard.

[Raynor]

Indeed, in letter #156, Tolkien talks about the priest kings of the numenor, referring most likely to the gondorians too; he also states that Aragorn reinstated this double status, with the reemergence of the king's line. In Numenor too, the king had the highest role in performing "religious" ceremonies. We could also add that the Gondorians were aware of their higher status, and probably have figured that maintaining and honoring old traditions would preserve or at least slow the diminishing of their lives, of which they were so concerned (the numenorean's lives shortened the quicker they disobeyed Eru and true traditions).

[Bêthberry]

Fascinating topic, Kuru. (It would be unkind to wish you ill more often! )

Perhaps the answer to the absence of civil strife in Gondor lies in a similar absence of strife in The Shire. Both represent somewhat idealised versions of social order and/or organisation.

May you recover in time to enjoy the seasonal festivities.

[Lalwendë]

Gondor certainly has its 'provinces', 'fiefdoms', whatever you wish to call places such as Dol Amroth. It also has Rohan, and it's in Rohan where we see an incident that probably points the way towards how Gondor was ruled. Aragorn arrives at Meduseld and does not want to subject himself to Theoden's wishes in laying his arms aside before he enters the hall; Gandalf advises him that this would be the wrong thing to do. So possibly the way that Gondor and its 'client kingdoms' have been ruled with a sense of respect, particularly necessary in the absence of the King. It's also clear that rule has been considerably at arms length during the Stewardship with relations between Gondor and Rohan for example growing ever more distant (though not as far as frosty).

Maybe Gondor is run almost as a 'commonwealth' during this time? The Kingship of Gondor is dormant, to some no doubt passed away entirely, and the other nations are now effectively independent. Under a Commonwealth nations are indeed fully independent but share the historic allegiance to one another; aside from being fully independent (this does not come until Aragorn takes his throne - presumably only the King has the Authority to do this?) they are allied to Gondor and one another.

[Kuruharan]

In fact, the only relation I could describe as feudal is that between King Aragorn and Prince Faramir, whereby one is granted land administration in exchange of fealty, counselling and military aid.

I’m afraid I can’t agree with that. First of all, on a very small scale, you have the oath-taking of Pippin to Denethor (although it may be an important point that Pippin did not appear to swear to Denethor personally). Secondly, there is the matter of the Princes of Dol Amroth (who appear to be virtually independent sovereigns, but Imrahil speaks of owing fealty). Then there are all of these Lords of Somesuchplace that come marching in to Minas Tirith.

What the situation between Aragorn and Faramir does indicate is that Aragorn probably wasn’t going to change the system (whatever that was).

Gondor was, in some ways, an ideal state.

Hmmm…not sure I agree with that either. Tolkien certainly viewed them as being a positive realm, but I’m not sure ideal is the right word. The Gondorians were always portrayed as being very proud of themselves, particularly in the days of their power. Tolkien’s feeling about this seems to be a bit ambiguous. Proud people tend also to be some of the more fractious. I have a hard time believing that the Gondorian nobility could have had the power to cause trouble (and in this I specifically mean that the lords had military forces at their command that were loyal to them) and not have done so at some point out of the goodness of their hearts. They were a virtuous nation, as far as that goes, but they were not all saints.

Maybe Gondor is run almost as a 'commonwealth' during this time?

Hmmm…there’s an interesting idea.

[Kuruharan]

I just had an "Oh Duh!" moment.

The Basileia Rhomaion had chronic manpower problems that forced them to rely heavily on foreign mercenaries, particularly upon certain groups that hailed from the remote north.

I hardly need say that this parallels the relationship of Gondor to the Northmen.

[Lalwendë]

All this talk of Gondor=Venice has brought something to mind.

I think Tolkien means that Gondor the country is like Venice in its political structure - a city state controlling smaller vassals. But where does Minas Tirith remind me of? Oxford.

This is quite odd, as Oxford has its own Bridge of Sighs, which links the two parts of Hertford College over New College Lane; this in fact looks like The Rialto Bridge in Venice, not the Bridge of Sighs. Oxford is also known for its canal and rivers like Venice, and is quite a 'watery' place. Even the buildings are quite Venetian at times - the old Bodleian in particular has that ancient crumbling air to it (though it is not crumbling ), and the Sheldonian Theatre is also very Italian (and it also looks creepy to me).

It's Oxford's twisting alleys, ancient buildings and air of monumentality make me think of it as a flat Minas Tirith. The half-hidden quads also conjour up an image of Minas Tirith with hidden courtyards within buildings. And then there's the Radcliffe Camera, the neo-classical Hawksmoor designed extension to the Bodleian. This is Tolkien's inspiration for Sauron's temple to Melkor on Numenor...