How could the Nazgul take Minas Morgul?

This question belongs to the far history of LotR, but I think it is worth to be discussed:

It is said in the appendices that the Nazgul occupied Minas Ithil (and the Palantir located there) after a long siege, almost 1000 years before the time of LotR. I wonder how Gondor at this point could lose a fortress that was probably not much less mighty than Minas Tirith was at the end of the Third Age. Some years before this happened, Gondor was able to utterly defeat the Nazguls' realm of Angmar in the North sending only a small fraction of its whole army. From where did the Nazgul take the troops at this time, to fight a battle that must have been comparable to the siege of Minas Tirith that is reported in LotR? This must imply that Mordor was full of Orcs already at this time, but if this is true, why did Sauron and the Nazgul wait for more than 1000 years until their final attack to Gondor? Is this not an inconsistency in the whole plot (or did Shelob play some role in turning Minas Ithil to Minas Morgul)?

By the way, please excuse that I cannot give exact quotations here, since I only have (German) translations of the books. But I know and like Tolkien's books for more than 25 years, and so I have decided to take part in your discussions...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Menelvagor

By the way, please excuse that I cannot give exact quotations here, since I only have (German) translations of the books. But I know and like Tolkien's books for more than 25 years, and so I have decided to take part in your discussions...

Don't worry, you are not the only one here who can't quote directly, I, for example, have only Czech translations (hello, neigbor )

But to the question you posed. My opinion is this - just opinion, nothing more, but I hope another perspective might help to solve this out. So, I was thinking like this: Minas Morgul was taken, but I don't necessarily think it was taken by Orcs at the time (or, there might have been Orcs present, but not as an army I think - maybe just some raid here, some raid there... whatever). Had it been open warfare, Gondor would probably strike out and deal with it (as you pointed out, it was some 30 years after they defeated Angmar). I confess that I have no idea how they did it, but if I look to the Appendices as you mentioned - ah, the unexact quotation comes, please if someone has original, post it here, I'd like to know how much I have strayed from the original *lol*:

Originally Posted by Appendix A, 4, translated to English from p.300 in the Czech version of Return of the King, second edition by Mladá fronta 1993; translation by Legate of Amon Lanc

"It was during the reign of king Eärnil, as was revealed later, when the Witch-King on his flight from the North came to Mordor and there he assembled the other Ringwraith whose leader he was. But it was not until the year 2000 when they came out of Mordor through the pass of Cirith Ungol and besieged Minas Ithil. They captured it in 2002..."

(and so on )

The Witch-king came to Mordor and he assembled the other Ringwraith - no Orc mentioned. I'm not saying that there were none (but maybe...?), but it seems that they were not so important for this. And they = ringwraith, came out of Mordor, and they (also as Faramir says) have taken Minas Morgul. It was the Ringwraith who have done the most important part of the job, I guess similar as to when Osgiliath was taken when Boromir and Faramir were there (FotR, Elrond's Council, Boromir speaks of "black rider" (Witch-king) and "wherever he came, both men and horses were as driven by madness").
What confuses me, is the "siege" part - I just can't imagine nine nazgul standing in front of the gates of Minas Ithil for two years. My point of view is like that: the nazgul and some Orc started to trouble the surroundings of Minas Ithil, more of a guerilla war, much like the later Rangers of Ithilien, and in 2002, they finally - somehow by sneaking in there, or by treachery - got inside Minas Ithil, and in the horror and panic the Nazgul caused most of the inhabitants have fled or were slain. I know this is not good, but it is all that I can think of.

Originally Posted by Menelvagor

(or did Shelob play some role in turning Minas Ithil to Minas Morgul)?

I don't think Shelob had something to do with it. She was not joined with Sauron (as very nicely described in the TT on the parallel with the cat). It is written that the Ringwraith have come to Imlad Morgul through Cirith Ungol, but there is no mentioning of "taking Shelob along". So she probably was there for herself, as before, and as after. Just don't think Tolkien would go for it. Nevertheless, it is an interesting thought.

[Boromir88]

I think Legate's guess is as good as any. We aren't really told of any details (besides what Legate has quoted in Appendix A - which is all that's said in my published version)...The Witch-King gathered the other Nazgul in Mordor and laid siege to Minas Ithil.

If it was a siege for two years we'd assume there was an army involved as well...as I agree it doesn't make sense that 9 Nazgul would be outside the gates for two years.

As Legate also mentions Boromir credits the Witch-King with being the most influential in Gondor losing the western half of Osgiliath:

...;but it was not by numbers that we were defeated. A power was there that we have not felt before.~The Council of Elrond

And that power was as Boromir would call...'The Black Captain.'

There's not really much more to add, except I don't think this 'siege' would be comparable to that of the siege of Minas Tirith. Eventhough if it did last longer, there probably wasn't a great amount of forces involved. A description of Mordor during King Hyarmendacil's reign in T.A. 1050 is this:

"Mordor was desolate, but was watched over by great fortresses that guarded the passes."~Appendix A: Gondor and the Heir's of Anarion

This would be referring to Minas Ithil, then it falls in T.A. 2002.

I don't think it was a huge battle at all, there was probably relatively low amount of forces involved. As after the fall of Minas Ithil, it is pretty much ignored. Nobody suspects anything, the Council of the Wise don't think Sauron has come back until over 50 years later (T.A. 2060)...that is when the Council of the Wise begin to start watching out for Sauron more, as the siege upon Minas Ithil seems to be rather passed off as 'unimportant.' And people don't start worrying about Sauron until half a century later.

After Sauron returns Mordor's forces start growing exponentially and assaults upon Gondor start renewing. My guess is that after Sauron's fall, there was some watch put around Mordor to see if Sauron would come back. But after some many years of 'inactivity' and Mordor being 'desolate,' plus with assaults from Angmar and Dol Guldur, that seemed to grab attention more than out in the 'desolate' Mordor. So, watching Mordor became less important as to watching Angmar and Dol Guldur.

That's just when the Witch-King slips away out of the North, gathers the Nazgul and launches an assault on Minas Ithil, taking it 2 years later. Even after that, the Council of the Wise and others still don't think much of it it seems.

[Beleg Cuthalion]

I'd like to point out that Minas Ithil was a walled city not a fortess, it is of course often is refered to as the tower, its most prominent building and the mark of the city. So it might not be as difficult to take by force as Minas Tirith which was built as a outpost/fortress (not so much as a city), guarding the Northern and Western approach to Osgiliath. So tacticaly, it would probably be easier to lay siege to and take.

[Lalwendë]

The siege lasted two years? Then I'm not surprised that Minas Ithil was eventually taken, as conditions must have become unbearable for those besieged. Presumably they must ahve had a significant supply of food to last that long, but other factors such as disease would have a terrible impact.

Though you'd have thought that even had it been under siege then Gondor might have been able to send an army up there to fight off the challengers and relieve the city? This must mean that either Gondor were depleted in resources or their attentions were being divided and resources not being made fully available to relieve Minas Ithil.

[CSteefel]

Or as I believe Tolkien mentioned (through one of his characters, perhaps Boromir?) that the watch on Mordor faltered. Presumably the forces were simply not there to deal with this attack...

[Rhod the Red]

There's no mention of a battle to take Minas Ithil, so I imagine the Nazgul used their power of fear (magnified by their combined number) to drive out the guards/population.

[tom the eldest]

Finally!i've searching for this thread even before i join the forum!

Now,maybe at the time minas ithil is besieged,gondor's atention was diverted to somewher else.could the corsair maybe distracting gondor while the nazgul attack?with the plalantir,ithil could communicate with the king,but if they do not know what attacking them,the king's answer maybe 'hold on,we are curretnly busy.we will send troops as fast as we can'.but then,the king and the steward forgot it,and then its too late.

Ah,im so happy now that i found this thread.


PS: old thread get really long,much longer than the new one,isnt it?