About Saruman and the Shire

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hi there, I just have one question which I'd like to get answered. I don't seem to figure the answer out by myself, so I'd be happy if you offer any assistence The topic is: When actually did Saruman start to care for the Shire? And, (continuingly) when did he start to smoke?

The thing is (to what I have come so far, up to now), according to Appendix B in LotR, Saruman started to watch the Shire regularly from 2953 TA on (the last White Council meeting). He appointed spies there and so on. This corresponds with the second text in Unfinished Tales (About Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire) where it is said that he started to visit (or appoint others to visit) the Shire "before the shadow of uncertainity fell on that land and it was scarcely guarded..." (which would start around 3000, when the Shire was more guarded by the Rangers).
But nowhere it's said he couldn't have started to care of the Shire earlier in 2953, let's say, for example once or twice visited it in secret (as he did later, before he appointed spies) - perhaps to check out "what does that Gandalf see on that no-mans-land?" or to buy some of the Ol'Tobby In the text about Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire (UT) there is that story of Saruman seeing Gandalf smoke - and talking about it - on the 2851 White Council meeting. But in Appendix B there is no word (and it seems very unlikely) that Saruman started to act in the Shire right after. But...

...the thing is, the first text from "About Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire" seems (at least to me) not to be narrative, but explaining: there is not distinct chronology in the text. But there are parts which confuse me:

"...when Saruman noticed Gandalf's love for the pipe weed (...) he tried it himself and soon he started to use it..." (sorry I'm translating back to English, I don't have the original) It seems to me, that Saruman first tested it some shord period after he saw Gandalf - which would be in 2850, right? (or short after) What do you think then? Did it take until 100 years later that he started to operate in the Shire, or perhaps until then he visited the Shire by himself once or twice, and obtained something to smoke? But if he did, wouldn't he smoke it regularly, and so start to require regular supplies? (according to UT: "...for this, the Shire continued to be important for him..." Again, sorry for the quotations, they are attempts to translate back to English since I don't have them in original, so maybe I even misinterpretated something because of translation )

But anyway, anyone any opinions about that? Any suggestions welcome.

Firstly, Saruman, I believe, had fallen into darkness (though not openly), far before Gandalf discovered that he had. FAR before it. The Shire, defended by the Rangers (and, I may add, a VERY select cadre of them), was otherwise defenceless. Now, when Gandalf mentioned that he had found the Ring in the possession of a Hobbit (Though Saruman had been spying before then), it will have largely increased Saruman's interest, not in the Shire, but in it's inhabitants. Ergo, it is no small wonder that he found them to be hardy folk. Subsequently, as had been mentioned in Hobbiton by Gandalf to Frodo, Saruman would have realised the prospect of forcing the Hobbits into slave labour. And, surprise surprise, that is what he did (more or less), after being ousted from power by Gandalf and the Fellowship (with the invaluable help of the Rohirrim). So there you go, a rather plausible reason for Saruman's interest in the Shire, cheap slave labour.

[Raynor]

Firstly, Saruman, I believe, had fallen into darkness (though not openly), far before Gandalf discovered that he had. FAR before it.

In the Tale of years, 2851 is the year in which Saruman began desiring the possesion of the ring:

2851
The White Council meets. Gandalf urges an attack on Dol Guldur. Saruman overrules him. [It afterwards became clear that Saruman had then begun to desire to possess the One Ring himself, and he hoped that it might reveal itself, seeking its master, if Sauron were let be for a time.] Saruman begins to search near the Gladden Fields.

In the last version given in Unfinished Tales, apparently rejected, Gandalf already suspected at that council that Saruman was becoming corrupt, hence the puffing of ring smokes in a sign of insolence, which gave all sorts of funny ideas to the paranoid Saruman concerning the hobbits and the ring.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Raynor

In the Tale of years, 2851 is the year in which Saruman began desiring the possesion of the ring:
In the last version given in Unfinished Tales, apparently rejected, Gandalf already suspected at that council that Saruman was becoming corrupt, hence the puffing of ring smokes in a sign of insolence, which gave all sorts of funny ideas to the paranoid Saruman concerning the hobbits and the ring.

Yeah, that's right. The thing is, if he did, did Saruman start to care about the Shire so much that he started to visit the Shire (or somehow interact with it, be it spying or whatever) just after that event (the 2851 Council) or was he just thinking about it and really started to investigate about the Shire in 2953?

[Raynor]

If we are to believe the Tale of years:

2953

Being jealous and afraid of Gandalf [Saruman] sets spies to watch all his movements; and notes his interest in the Shire. He soon begins to keep agents in Bree and the Southfarthing.

Apparently, 2953 is the year when his interest in the Shire began.

In the Tale of years, 2851 is the year in which Saruman began desiring the possesion of the ring

Indeed, though it is not confirmed as the year in which he became corrupt, as Saruman had studied ring-lore for quite a long time.