Sorry...Have to ask about historical analogy... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Michael Wilhelmson · 09-04-2006, 10:14 AM

I know Tolkien hated the perception of historical analogy in LOTR, correcting anyone who tried to make connections between the history of Middle-Earth and of this Earth...but I have to ask if anyone else sees some racial, cultural, and historical parallels between the fictional world and this one?

I have my own theories, but I'd like to see some others first. Just ignore Tolkien's advice, and go crazy.

Bêthberry · 09-04-2006, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Wilhelmson

I have my own theories, but I'd like to see some others first. Just ignore Tolkien's advice, and go crazy.

I suppose you have been influenced by some of the other threads which suggest that readers need not concur with the author?

radagastly · 09-04-2006, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bethberry:

I suppose you have been influenced by some of the other threads which suggest that readers need not concur with the author?

Very astute, I think. I suppose one could see a World War Two analogy within "The Lord of the Rings," but Tolkien himself vehemently denied this. Whether it's there or not, any epic war could correlate to the War of the Ring. Certainly the Nazis no longer have world power as they did when Tolkien wrote his masterpiece. This does not make the applicability of this correlation uninformative, or valueless. One can always learn something about one by knowing something of the other. There is probably as much danger in "ultimate reader interpretation" as there is in "ultimate authorial authority."

Let us set aside the Lord of the Bible thread from this other thread for the moment.

Certainly the battles, and the battle techniques used were as close to a variety of battle techniques actually used in Medieval times. While this a "Books" thread, I think this is something Peter Jackson did quite well in the movie. The "travelling" army, the orcs of Mordor, used catapults, while the entrenched army (Gondor) used trebuchets. This was very telling about Medieval warfare, I think. not that an army could not construct a trebuchet on-site if they needed to, but that catapults were probably more reliable when carted a long distance. I'm no expert, but I would think this is as close to historical accuracy as you can truly find. The overall story cannot be accurately correlated to any historical war that I can think of. Of course, I don't look for it. It is it's own story set in its own world.

Rumil · 09-05-2006, 05:50 PM

I've always reckoned that the relief of Gondor by the Rohirrim was partly inspired by the crusades, except with a happy ending this time!

Gondor representing Byzantium, one half of a formerly great and powerful Empire now to an extent decayed and under threat from the Turks and Saracens, but with the Rohirrim, a force of chivalric hard charging knights riding to their rescue (not that the crusaders were mostly chivalric or knights and they eventually ended up sacking Byzantium, but you get my drift!). Also an element of the relief of Vienna by the Poles maybe?

Bêthberry · 09-05-2006, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rumil

I've always reckoned that the relief of Gondor by the Rohirrim was partly inspired by the crusades, except with a happy ending this time!

Gondor representing Byzantium, one half of a formerly great and powerful Empire now to an extent decayed and under threat from the Turks and Saracens, but with the Rohirrim, a force of chivalric hard charging knights riding to their rescue (not that the crusaders were mostly chivalric or knights and they eventually ended up sacking Byzantium, but you get my drift!). Also an element of the relief of Vienna by the Poles maybe?

There is that comment from Tolkien to the effect that, if one examines the map of Middle-earth, one will see that Minas Tirith is right about where Venice is. Even without Tolkien's comment, would we still have to consider the map or are we free to develop our own ruminations about the historical possibilities? Is the map part of the text for interpretation or is it extraneous?

I wouldn't see Harad south of Byzantium. It would seem more probable that, given Minas Tirith is home of the loremasters, Alexandria with its famous library might make a closer fit.

Just talking hypotheticals here.

mark12_30 · 09-05-2006, 08:20 PM

Well, some of this stuff is thirty years old-- but here are the things that brought a yelp of recognition to me when the teacher mentioned them in history class.

"The Seven Walls of Constantinople." Minas Tirith had seven, too.

"The Song of Roland" where he blows his horn bil his temples burst. Boromir's horn, of course.

Ah-- there was this guy (Persian? Assyrian?) who invaded cities back before Alexander the Great, and he did the bodyparts-catapult thing to dispirit cities he was besieging. I guess it's all old news. Was it Ashurbanipal? Can't remember.

Vienna-- if Vienna had fallen, Europe would already be Islamic. Venna was the gateway to Europe.

If I think of any others, I'll be back...

09-04-2006, 10:14 AM	#1
Michael Wilhelmson Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: IL Posts: 16	Sorry...Have to ask about historical analogy... I know Tolkien hated the perception of historical analogy in LOTR, correcting anyone who tried to make connections between the history of Middle-Earth and of this Earth...but I have to ask if anyone else sees some racial, cultural, and historical parallels between the fictional world and this one? I have my own theories, but I'd like to see some others first. Just ignore Tolkien's advice, and go crazy. __________________ Horseman of the plains

09-05-2006, 05:50 PM	#4
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	I've always reckoned that the relief of Gondor by the Rohirrim was partly inspired by the crusades, except with a happy ending this time! Gondor representing Byzantium, one half of a formerly great and powerful Empire now to an extent decayed and under threat from the Turks and Saracens, but with the Rohirrim, a force of chivalric hard charging knights riding to their rescue (not that the crusaders were mostly chivalric or knights and they eventually ended up sacking Byzantium, but you get my drift!). Also an element of the relief of Vienna by the Poles maybe? __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

09-05-2006, 08:20 PM	#6
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Well, some of this stuff is thirty years old-- but here are the things that brought a yelp of recognition to me when the teacher mentioned them in history class. "The Seven Walls of Constantinople." Minas Tirith had seven, too. "The Song of Roland" where he blows his horn bil his temples burst. Boromir's horn, of course. Ah-- there was this guy (Persian? Assyrian?) who invaded cities back before Alexander the Great, and he did the bodyparts-catapult thing to dispirit cities he was besieging. I guess it's all old news. Was it Ashurbanipal? Can't remember. Vienna-- if Vienna had fallen, Europe would already be Islamic. Venna was the gateway to Europe. If I think of any others, I'll be back... __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.